Milford MA. Police have new SUPER RIFLE

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RTFM

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Link http://www.milforddailynews.com/news/local_regional/milf_rifles11212003.htm

"It'll go 3 miles and still kill somebody," said Sgt. John Sanchioni, a firearms instructor within the department.
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And what is this new super-D-duper 3-MILE-GUN???

14 newly purchased Sig Sauer Commando 552 rifles, which will replace shotguns in the cruisers.
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Um, Dear Milford Ma. Police, please note, the caliber of your new super gun is .223

Sgt. John Sanchioni, please read and understand the following:
Bore diameter: 5.56mm (.233 inches)
Maximum range :3,600 meters
Maximum effective range:
Area target: 2,624.8 feet (800 meters)
Point target: 1,804.5 feet (550 meters)
Muzzle velocity: 2,800 feet (853 meters) per second

550 Meters = 1804.457 Feet = 0.3417532 MILES!

Thank you, that is all.

RTFM
 
Actually, if they're using M193 ball ammo, the maximum effective range is way less than three miles. A Colt Commando with an 11.5" bbl will drive M193 above 2,700 fps to about 50 yards; below that, it's just delivering .22 caliber holes.

The Sig Commando has an 8.9" bbl, and I suspect a three-mile shot would be well out of the question.

But they've got uber-cool rifles. The Milford po-po's definitely have been Skunky-fied.
 
I decided to send an email to the C.O.P. Milford. Instead of just laughing at the inaccuracy of the 3 mile gun here. I figured it could not hurt to see if they had any comments on the disparity of the comments from one officer to another.

Here is my email.
Mods, should have I started this in Legal and Political or Rifles?
If so please feel free to move it.
RTFM


Chief O’Loughlin, on Friday, November 21, 2003 I read an article titled "Stepping up the stopping power" in the Milford Daily News, written by Christopher J. Marshall,

Quoted in the article is Sgt. John Sanchioni saying-

"...14 newly purchased Sig Sauer Commando 552 rifles, which will replace shotguns in the cruisers.

"It'll go 3 miles and still kill somebody," said Sgt. John Sanchioni, a firearms instructor within the department."

Yet at the beginning of the article, Ed Pomponio, an 18-year veteran from Milford Police Department is quoted as follows-

“Ed Pomponio, a former U.S. Marine, is an 18-year veteran of the Milford Police Department. Known among officers as one of the better shooters, he has been trained by both military and paramilitary organizations.

Standing with about a dozen officers taking target practice deep in the woods off Cedar Street yesterday, Pomponio explains a key difference between police and the marines.

"The military shoots to kill, police shoot to stop."

Your veteran officer is contradicting your firearms instructor.
This is confusing and alarming, if in fact your firearms instructor is training to kill, not stop.

Please note, the Sig Commando 552 rifle is a .223 caliber (5.56mm NATO)

The Maximum Effective Range for a point target using 5.56mm is 460 meters.
As stated in the Department of the Army, General Dennis J. Reimer Training and Doctrine Library:

Field Manual FM3-22.9
CHAPTER 2
CHARACTERISTICS, AMMUNITION, AND ACCESSORIES
The Maximum Effective Range for a point target is 460 Meters.

460 Meters is equal to 1509.182 Feet
1509.182 Feet is equal to 0.2858299 Miles.
Not the 3 miles Sgt. John Sanchioni, the firearms instructor within the department is quoted in the article.

Link to the Department of the Army information:
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-22.9/c02.htm#t2_2

Link to the Sigarms web site for the rifle information:
http://www.sigarms.com/le-military/special-models.asp?product_id=154

Link to the Milford Daily News article on your new rifles:
http://www.milforddailynews.com/news/local_regional/milf_rifles11212003.htm

I tried to locate Sgt. John Sanchioni email address in the Milford Police web site, to copy him also on this to see if he cared to comment on the rifle distance discrepancy, but could only find your address.

Would you care to comment on the discrepancy of the rifle distance or the comments of Sgt. John Sanchioni vs. that of Ed Pomponio?

I am also forwarding a copy of this email to Christopher J. Marshall the author, for reference.
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Address of Chief Thomas O’Loughlin:
[email protected]
[email protected]
For Christopher J. Marshall author of the article:
[email protected]

Any comments form you all, on the email?
I also found that my 550 Meters was incorrect from my first post, and amended it in the email with distance reference.
This is my first real email of this kind to an outside party, how'd I do?

RTFM
 
I also found that my 550 Meters was incorrect from my first post, and amended it in the email with distance reference.
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One requirement for military 5.56 is that it be able to penetrate both sides of a standard army helmet from 600 meters. Furthermore, US Marines train to hit man-size targets out to 550 meters through the iron sights in basic training, etc. Of course, this is with 20" weapons, with 20" velocities and long sight radii... the cops here have guns that are much shorter than that. They should have at least bought the 551. The "highly effective", explosive fragmentation range with the 552 is probably going to be only about 50 meters.

I suspect the comment by the firearms instructor, while it appears incredibly stupid on the surface, can probably be attributed to the ignorance of the reporter (I certainly hope, at least) rather than the instructor. I can see "3 miles" as being a technically correct answer to a question such as "what is the maximum range of the weapon"... it probably CAN kill someone from that far, if pointed up at an optimum angle, etc... but since the world record confirmed sniper kill is something like 24XX meters with a .50, obviously the Fifes here aren't gonna be shooting at anyone 3 miles away with their new toys any time soon.:rolleyes: I'm sure the instructor knows this, but the reporter doesn't.

More to the point, while the coolness factor of the Sigs is certainly through the roof:) , you've got to wonder why they are spending 14K of department funds on Sigs when 7K of department funds would have bought ARs that do the exact same thing. Oh well. Reminds me of those morons in Colorado (I think), who decided their snipers couldn't hit anything at 400 meters with their puny .308s, so they spent 10 grand for some .50 Barrets. The chief announced later at a press conference, that now, their snipers could definitely "cap somebody from 400 meters" . Longest shot in department history, 70 some odd meters. I couldn't stop laughing for hours.
 
ttbadboy

I suspect the comment by the firearms instructor, while it appears incredibly stupid on the surface, can probably be attributed to the ignorance of the reporter (I certainly hope, at least) rather than the instructor. I can see "3 miles" as being a technically correct answer to a question such as "what is the maximum range of the weapon"... it probably CAN kill someone from that far, if pointed up at an optimum angle, etc... but since the world record confirmed sniper kill is something like 24XX meters with a .50, obviously the Fifes here aren't gonna be shooting at anyone 3 miles away with their new toys any time soon. I'm sure the instructor knows this, but the reporter doesn't.
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Well said sir. :cool:
 
Yep. What ttbadboy sez 'bout 3 miles. The police spokesperson is gun ignorant.
 
a tumbling round thats specifically designed to travel through bone marrow no less. thats why its so uber-deadly-supercalifrigilisticskunkycalidocious.
 
I have friends who have moved out to Milford for cheaper housing. The towns schools suck and the infrastructure is heavily burdened by urban sprawl.

There used to be a fair amount of crime, old biker gangs and the town was a cross roads for drug trafficing but the town has been pretty gentrified over the last 10 years.

I guess I just don't see why podunk cops need .223 assault rifles instead of shotguns.
 
heck
if i toss my 22lr in my trunk
after it goes 1000 miles
it will still kill something
:evil:

Many PDs are liability limited to only shoot sub 100 yard shots
 
HEY, I live in Milford! Hummmmm. Not sure if I should be happy about having a "well armed" police force, nervous about them having 14 of these rifles or pissed as hell about the tax money they spent getting them. I guess a well armed police force is good, but hopefully they get enough training to be effective with these weapons. It's not like Milford is the hub of crime in eastern Massachusetts. Hell, there at my next door neighbors house twice a month on a domestic disturbance call. A week ago or so 5 officers showed up. Must of been a slow night. It's fun watching the guy get escorted out of the place through my door peep sight. His wife ranting and raving and then the next morning I see him strolling back in every time. lol
 
Reply from Chief O’Loughlin

Thank you for your interest in the Milford Police Department. In response to your specific concerns, I have read the statements of each of the officers and I have found them to be consistent with one another.

So that officers are mindful of their "backdrop" and the capable distance that a round from the rifle can travel unimpeded, Sgt. Sanchioni reminded officers that the potential distance in this instance would be up to "three miles", at which time the round could, if it struck a human being, result in their injury or death, in short "it'll go 3 miles and still kill somebody". This statement is not contrary to the fact that the "Maximum Effective Range for a point target...is 460 meters" or as you point out "1509.182 feet". The distinction is the "Maximum Effective Range for a point target" as contrasted to the maximum distance that the round is capable of traveling randomly and unimpeded.

The fact that a round could potentially "go 3 miles and still kill somebody" is not inconsistent with the training standards that are provided to police officers. Sergeant Sanchioni's statement addresses the unintended results of a rifle round that is fired and does not suggest that officers should utilize the weapon in a manner consistent with a military action. In fact it suggests to the contrary, in that it reminds officers of the capable maximum distance and suggests that they have to be mindful of the potential for unintended harm.

Officer Ed Pomponio correctly asserts the standards for law enforcement when he states that "the military shoots to kill, police shoot to stop". Again, officers are trained that their mission is to stop the advancement of conduct that may result in the death of the officer or another as contrasted with the rules of engagement for military personnel during a military action.

Please know that I participated in this training requirement this past Saturday. Although the newspaper article provides residents of the Milford community with a snapshot of police firearms training, the newspaper could not dedicate the necessary space to provide a full and complete understanding of the couple of hours of classroom training that officers received in understanding the safe handling and use of the weapons and the legal and policy requirements associated with the weaponry. Nor could the article provide a full accounting of the several hours that were spent that day in ensuring that each officer had a proficient understanding of the practical use and safe handling of each of the issued weapons.

In closing, I am hopeful that this information is responsive to your concerns.


Tom O'Loughlin
Chief of Police
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Well, you guys seem to have everything covered. Only thing I would add ...

Not sure if I should be happy about having a "well armed" police force, nervous about them having 14 of these rifles or pissed as hell about the tax money they spent getting them.
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Why?

I have no problem with police having weapons like these, as long as they get enough training with them. Some say that the Sig is the best gun in that caliber, and our cops certainly deserve the best. I wouldn't want them to bring them out on every call, however.
 
Well trained (I hope) police get high quality weapons to keep the peace. Good.

I, as another civilian, cannot do the same. Bad. Very bad.
 
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