As I recall, the military loading for the .38 Special was a 130gr bullet at a higher velocity than the standard 158gr lead, maybe 950fps-1000fps. Is it possible that with the FMJ that this load would be equal to the standard 9mm FMJ being used on the battle field, or so close to it that anyone shot wouldn't know the difference? I've never heard anyone compare the two. I do know of a vet that used a .38 M&P in Viet Nam effectively with that load, but that is an isolated incident.
Military .38 Special Better than 9mm in the Battlefield?
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I found this: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-141373.html
A poster on that thread claims US M882 9mm ball pushes a 112 grain bullet to 1263fps. I would not know how to credibly compare the two.
A poster on that thread claims US M882 9mm ball pushes a 112 grain bullet to 1263fps. I would not know how to credibly compare the two.
mljdeckard
Member
Especially if both are FMJ bullets. I think you would have to crunch a LOT of incidents to see any difference at all.
Actually jmr40, a .357 will push a 158 grain bullet slightly faster than a 124 grain 9mm +P...big difference, a .357 using a light bullet will be a huge increase over 9mm. A look at Speer Gold Dot data as an example...although not military ammo of course but probably fairly hot stuff.
38 spl +P 125 grain- 945 fps (my nightstand revolver load)
9mm std 124 grain- 1150 fps (my pocket 9mm load)
9mm +P 124 grain- 1220 fps (my IWB auto holster carry load)
.357 mag 125 grain- 1450 fps (sometimes OWB belt carry load)
38 spl +P 125 grain- 945 fps (my nightstand revolver load)
9mm std 124 grain- 1150 fps (my pocket 9mm load)
9mm +P 124 grain- 1220 fps (my IWB auto holster carry load)
.357 mag 125 grain- 1450 fps (sometimes OWB belt carry load)
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BCRider
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Compare a reloading manual and you'll find that a proper comparison for 9mm is the .38Spl +P loads. Depending on powder and bullet type they can be a match or very near match within 50 to 70 fps.
SSN Vet
Member
An uncle of mine was Air Force Intelligence during Viet Nam, he was stationed there during the Tet Offensive when a bunch of Viet Cong played insurgent and went around shooting and killing servicemen while in plain clothes making them almost impossible to distinguish from civilians as he told it. His service pistol was a S&W 15, the reason I have a 15-3 (I already had four model 19s at the time, I just wanted a pistol like the one he had at the time).
Three guys with knives rushed him and a fellow officer while they were in a cafe/bistro just before things really got started. He dropped each one of them with a single shot as he told it. He used the ammo he was issued. He grew up shooting revolvers as my grandad had about a dozen double actions lying around the house (had made enemies of the Klan) and it was a time when a fourteen year old could shoot on ten acres of property at two in the afternoon (late fifties in Florida) by himself and no one would say boo. The targets were empty cigarette packs and soda cans and bottles (didn't have no paper targets unless you included playing cards). My Uncle did shooting competitions on base he told me.
So when he drew, he saw three targets and he fired three shots. The first one was a head shot and he dropped, the next two were shots to the heart as he said and they dropped not far from where they were shot.
At day's end its about shot placement.
Three guys with knives rushed him and a fellow officer while they were in a cafe/bistro just before things really got started. He dropped each one of them with a single shot as he told it. He used the ammo he was issued. He grew up shooting revolvers as my grandad had about a dozen double actions lying around the house (had made enemies of the Klan) and it was a time when a fourteen year old could shoot on ten acres of property at two in the afternoon (late fifties in Florida) by himself and no one would say boo. The targets were empty cigarette packs and soda cans and bottles (didn't have no paper targets unless you included playing cards). My Uncle did shooting competitions on base he told me.
So when he drew, he saw three targets and he fired three shots. The first one was a head shot and he dropped, the next two were shots to the heart as he said and they dropped not far from where they were shot.
At day's end its about shot placement.
I recall you posting this nonsense before, being corrected, then arguing about it. And here you go, yet again.
http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM43-0001-27.pdf
Skip around to pages 12-5 and 12-6 and you will see weight listed as 112 grains and velocity as 1263 fps (plus or minus 5 fps).
You will please note that 1263 fps is not within 100 fps of 1450 fps, nor is 112 grains equal to 125 grains.
Regarding the OP's question, The terminal performance of one FMJ 9mm bullet compared to the other is probably pretty similar, in spite of disparate velocities (950 fps vs 1263 fps).
Both type of handguns and rounds have been used on the battlefields; I figured it would be o.k. to call them battlefield weapons.
Is there some other criteria for definition that I don't know about? Since our soldiers have been limited to FMJ ammo, I thought it would be a good subject of comparison.
Is there some other criteria for definition that I don't know about? Since our soldiers have been limited to FMJ ammo, I thought it would be a good subject of comparison.
mljdeckard
Member
Wiki says that USGI .38 Special M41 is rated at 950 fps in a solid 6" test barrel, but only does about 750 in a 4" revolver. Which agrees with my recollections of other sources.
That makes it pretty close to the 130 gr Cheapmart Econoball.
I would think 9mm to be an improvement, even with hardball.
That makes it pretty close to the 130 gr Cheapmart Econoball.
I would think 9mm to be an improvement, even with hardball.
I dunno. A 9mm hole is a 9mm hole, whether it's slightly supersonic or just puttering along at 750 fps. There's no expansion, so either way, you end up with a very narrow wound channel; the bullet shape isn't even conducive to wounding, unless there's a TC version of the .38 special.
Of course, it certainly helps that the 9mm carries ~2.5 times as many rounds as the .38, and is much faster on the reload... Given that advantage, it's not practical to compare M882 to M41 on a one-to-one basis.
The WWII .38 Spl load was a FMJ 158 grain RN loaded to standard .38 Spl velocity of the time.
Which was faster then it is now.
The 130 grain M41 load is an anemic load developed for SAC for use in the alloy revolvers air crews carried in the 1950's.
The older WWII FMJ load was too powerful for the alloy guns and they were coming apart early on.
The RA 1967 M41 ball I have an ammo can full of is loaded with a undersize .355" dia, 130.7 grain FMJ bullet.
The undersize bullet was also an effort to reduce pressure in the old SAC Aircrew alloy revolvers.
It is about like a light target load and would not be my choice for military or SD use, if I had a choice.
rc
This is correct.
I would take an M&P revolver loaded with 158gr loads of "Proper" strength over 124gr NATO ball ammo as a man stopper any day.
Hell, my 2" barreled J-frame smith spits out a 158gr LSWCHP at 950fps.
Hotter than the specs of the time, but believe me when I tell you that "modern" .38 special loads are waaaaay watered down and should not be used for a comparison when referencing the stout loads of yesteryear.
-Jake
The 130 gr. .38 Spl. round ran at 750 fps, or a bit less, out of the S&W Combat Masterpiece, Mod. 15, 4" bbl. Even less out of the alloy snubbies. It was universally despised by those of us who had to carry it. Great gun, lousy ammo. Many of the Air Police in Vietnam cut Xs in the tips to make a sort of dum-dum, but they didn't work too well either. Simply too slow. Which is why many of us in Vietnam who were able to do so scrounged 1911s. Great gun (if you had a good piece), pretty good ammo, for FMJ.
The M-9 shooting NATO 124 9mm runs at about 1200 fps, a huge improvement. Even out of the Sig 228 carried by OSI and others, it goes well over 1000 fps. Lousy gun, pretty good ammo, for FMJ.
The .357 Mag. adds another 250 fps to the 125 gr. bullet, for 1450 or so fps, which is why the 125 gr. JHP .357 Mag. has been regarded as, arguably, the best or very close to the best stopper in the handgun arena.
The M-9 shooting NATO 124 9mm runs at about 1200 fps, a huge improvement. Even out of the Sig 228 carried by OSI and others, it goes well over 1000 fps. Lousy gun, pretty good ammo, for FMJ.
The .357 Mag. adds another 250 fps to the 125 gr. bullet, for 1450 or so fps, which is why the 125 gr. JHP .357 Mag. has been regarded as, arguably, the best or very close to the best stopper in the handgun arena.
AFAIK, the U.S. military never issued .357 Magnum and never issued any hollow point bullet ammo in any caliber for combat use. So discussion of the .357 in the context of a military caliber is not valid.
Jim
Jim
The SAC HQ (Strategic Air Command Headquarters) at Offutt AFB, Nebraska, under Gen. Curtis Lemay, issued S&W Model 19s to the SAC HQ Elite Guard. Most were nickel plated, with stag grips, carried in crossdraw holsters. These guys were the real deal. They were given a lot of leeway and nobody messed with them. Lemay was a gun guy and chose the .357 Mag. for this role. (He also was the senior officer responsible for the adoption of the M-16 by the U.S. military.) Early issue were often older .38s, but over time the 19s became the standard.
See here:
http://www.saceliteguard.com/index.htmlhttp://www.saceliteguard.com/images/SAC_Guard_No_Two.jpg
See here:
http://www.saceliteguard.com/index.htmlhttp://www.saceliteguard.com/images/SAC_Guard_No_Two.jpg
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I agree hollow-point ammo has been, and is still issued for use by CONUS CID & NCIS special investigators, spooks, etc. Possibly by Air Police too in the USA.
JHP is frowned upon for use outside the continental US in combat zones.
rc
JHP is frowned upon for use outside the continental US in combat zones.
rc
Carl N. Brown
Member
It is my understanding that USAF routinely issued .38 Spl tracer ammo with revolvers intended for pilots, so the gun could be used both for defense and as a signalling device.
I have heard that too.
But the fact is, a pistol caliber tracer is next to invisible to everyone except the guy that shot it up in the air.
Maybe it was issued.
But it had to be more a 'feel good' thing then an effective signaling device.
rc
But the fact is, a pistol caliber tracer is next to invisible to everyone except the guy that shot it up in the air.
Maybe it was issued.
But it had to be more a 'feel good' thing then an effective signaling device.
rc
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