Just read an article that documents that when trained professionals (& the rest of us) fire under stress we lose our fine motor skills. This accounts for the very poor accuracy experienced by ALL shooters and it is unavoidable regardless of previous experience or training. This being the case, other than for snipers, why bother with the extra expense for a more accurate combat rifle like the M16 oe M14? Seems to me that an "expert" at the target range would be hard pressed to make "marksman" in the field when the shooting starts. I guess spraying with the "cheap" AK makes sense.
Military accuracy un-needed?
- Thread starter telewinz
- Start date
- Status
Deadman
Member
" I guess spraying with the "cheap" AK makes sense. "
Sure, as long as you have plenty of ammo to 'spray' for a long time.
Conducting what the Australian Army calls 'section attacks' (ie 12-20 man firefights) has taught me how quickly you can run out of ammo if you over utilise full-auto. For example on one occasion I had a Minimi with a 100 round belt that kept on jamming every 5-10 rounds, I was only firing 3-5 round bursts, and the 'fire and movement' drills during the section attack took me maybe 150 yards. Nonetheless I ran out of ammo about half way through and pretty much sat around taking cover until the mock firefight was over.
Ovbiously standard loads for a Minimi gunner are 200+ rounds depending on the situation, and altough I did try to conserve what ammo I had, I still ran out before I expected to.
Oh well at least I had fun blazing away with a Minimi
Sure, as long as you have plenty of ammo to 'spray' for a long time.
Conducting what the Australian Army calls 'section attacks' (ie 12-20 man firefights) has taught me how quickly you can run out of ammo if you over utilise full-auto. For example on one occasion I had a Minimi with a 100 round belt that kept on jamming every 5-10 rounds, I was only firing 3-5 round bursts, and the 'fire and movement' drills during the section attack took me maybe 150 yards. Nonetheless I ran out of ammo about half way through and pretty much sat around taking cover until the mock firefight was over.
Ovbiously standard loads for a Minimi gunner are 200+ rounds depending on the situation, and altough I did try to conserve what ammo I had, I still ran out before I expected to.
Oh well at least I had fun blazing away with a Minimi
People should have as accurate a firearm as possible (be it due to personal cost, or military issue) and be trained how to shoot VERY well.
Basketball players shoot free-throws at the end of practice to force them to overcome fatigue. Golfers practice chipping, putting, etc, for hours on end. You must have the repitition, along with the fatigue to accurately simulate a game situation.
I think it is the same with firearms. Practice, practice, practice. According to your logic, there is no point in practicing our shooting techniques (for other than fun, of course) because it won't amount to a hill of beans if TSHTF.
Perfection is not attainable. But practice will get you closer than sitting around watching MTV.
Just some random thoughts,
Stinger
Basketball players shoot free-throws at the end of practice to force them to overcome fatigue. Golfers practice chipping, putting, etc, for hours on end. You must have the repitition, along with the fatigue to accurately simulate a game situation.
I think it is the same with firearms. Practice, practice, practice. According to your logic, there is no point in practicing our shooting techniques (for other than fun, of course
) because it won't amount to a hill of beans if TSHTF.Perfection is not attainable. But practice will get you closer than sitting around watching MTV.
Just some random thoughts,
Stinger
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Jeff Cooper recently spoke to this in one of his columns, with some rather cogent commentary. First off, he disagrees with the central thesis as to the results of training. Next is what might be called the "Lemming Idea": Just because others are doing it wrong doesn't mean you shouldn't learn to do it right.
A few decades back, talking to my father about his WW II experiences in France and Germany after D-Day and onward, he pretty much indicated that his people damned well aimed at their targets. He never asked them to do anything he wouldn't do--although he could be rather emphatic in the asking.
Sure, stress has detrimental effects, but I note that folks do pretty good in race cars, or gymnastics or in the boxing ring. You lose some peripheral vision, but you danged sure know what's in front of you! And for sure, training and experience let you be pretty doggoned good at controlling your motor!
Art
A few decades back, talking to my father about his WW II experiences in France and Germany after D-Day and onward, he pretty much indicated that his people damned well aimed at their targets. He never asked them to do anything he wouldn't do--although he could be rather emphatic in the asking.
Sure, stress has detrimental effects, but I note that folks do pretty good in race cars, or gymnastics or in the boxing ring. You lose some peripheral vision, but you danged sure know what's in front of you! And for sure, training and experience let you be pretty doggoned good at controlling your motor!
Art
cracked butt
Member
I was watching one of the episodes of "Band of Brothers" a few days ago and saw a scene that reminds me of this thread. In one scene, a German sniper was sitting in the upper level of a barn, shooting allied men who had just captured the town. They had a pretty good idea where the sniper was but needed to flush him out. One man decided to run across a street to draw the sniper's fire while another man was to shoot the sniper. Before the runner took off, he told the shooter "don't miss". The runner took off zigzagging across the street while the shooter took careful aim with his garand and popped the sniper.
I'd bet that if in an alternate universe where the shooter was armed with an AK, both he and the runner would have been popped by the sniper.
I'd bet that if in an alternate universe where the shooter was armed with an AK, both he and the runner would have been popped by the sniper.
Army studies determined that it is typically the NCOs and machinegunners in a squad that has the discipline to take aimed shots at enemies. They do the actual "killing" during armed encounters.
The rest of the squad just "throws lead" to provide suppressive fire than taking well-aimed shots at enemies. Something to do with the Average American's unwillingness to kill. Fire discipline does improve as units become more seasoned.
Quality weapons and training contributes greatly towards morale. People who believe that they're the best can do some amazing things while under fire.
The rest of the squad just "throws lead" to provide suppressive fire than taking well-aimed shots at enemies. Something to do with the Average American's unwillingness to kill. Fire discipline does improve as units become more seasoned.
Quality weapons and training contributes greatly towards morale. People who believe that they're the best can do some amazing things while under fire.
Crimper-D
Member
Well Hollywood throws some odd curver into the pot...
Remember the sniper scene in "Full Metal Jacket"? . SHE was doing considerable damage to that squad of Grunts with an AK at what looked to be about 150 to 200 meters - Took ol' Animal Mutha and his M60 to lay down enough supressing fire to let the riflemen pin her down and flush her out and kill her.
Marksmanship? Teamwork = Definately
Remember the sniper scene in "Full Metal Jacket"? . SHE was doing considerable damage to that squad of Grunts with an AK at what looked to be about 150 to 200 meters - Took ol' Animal Mutha and his M60 to lay down enough supressing fire to let the riflemen pin her down and flush her out and kill her.
Marksmanship?
Teamwork = Definatelytwoblink
Member
Hmm... you got it all wrong.
This is what it means:
A man who usually shoots 1" groups will shoot 4" groups under stress.
A man who usually shoots 4" groups will shoot 16" groups under stress.
You lose your fine motor skills, but you don't lose 100% of your muscle memory.
First time I tried speed shooting, missed all 5 shots of the target 5" in front of me. Impossible I thought, but true. After training, I get them about a hand's width apart in stress..
TRAINING HELPS!!
This is what it means:
A man who usually shoots 1" groups will shoot 4" groups under stress.
A man who usually shoots 4" groups will shoot 16" groups under stress.
You lose your fine motor skills, but you don't lose 100% of your muscle memory.
First time I tried speed shooting, missed all 5 shots of the target 5" in front of me. Impossible I thought, but true. After training, I get them about a hand's width apart in stress..
TRAINING HELPS!!
Destructo6
Member
And if he had a phase plasma rifle in a 40 watt range, the whole platoon would have been toast! Wait, that doesn't make any sense either.
You know, I'm almost certain she was armed with a Czech Vz-58 and not an AK. Your point stands, of course.
voilsb
Member
I agree with some of the above posts that military accuracy is very badly needed.
yes, you lose a lot of capability under extreme stress. this is actually an argument for lots and lots and lots of practice to improve your ability as much as possible, and to have a weapon that is as capable as possible.
like twoblink said, if your 4" shot groups balloon to 16" under high-stress situations, that's all the more reason to get your groups under 1" whenever possible so that they'll be less than 4" when you're stressed out.
yes, you lose a lot of capability under extreme stress. this is actually an argument for lots and lots and lots of practice to improve your ability as much as possible, and to have a weapon that is as capable as possible.
like twoblink said, if your 4" shot groups balloon to 16" under high-stress situations, that's all the more reason to get your groups under 1" whenever possible so that they'll be less than 4" when you're stressed out.
3 gun
Member
Of course part of the reason to train is to change where you start to feel stress. In my case with motorcycle racing I got to the point were 100mph on the track felt like moving thru a parking lot looking for a space near the door.
They offered the idea of training as spending $10 of attention. When you first start off, just getting underway without stalling takes $9.50, leaving little to handle a problem. By the time you get good enough to pass a drivers test the same skill only uses $1. As you gain skills everyday riding takes even less.
I've noticed the same in my shooting. In the beginning of my first USPSA season what seemed like an impossible skill set to master or shot to make now seems almost easy.
For your training to be of any effect you must add and deal with higher levels of stress. Then identify your stress point and train to pass it. Just like being able to ride in a motorcycle doesn't mean you can win a race, just improving your group size doesn't mean you are ready for a fight.
They offered the idea of training as spending $10 of attention. When you first start off, just getting underway without stalling takes $9.50, leaving little to handle a problem. By the time you get good enough to pass a drivers test the same skill only uses $1. As you gain skills everyday riding takes even less.
I've noticed the same in my shooting. In the beginning of my first USPSA season what seemed like an impossible skill set to master or shot to make now seems almost easy.
For your training to be of any effect you must add and deal with higher levels of stress. Then identify your stress point and train to pass it. Just like being able to ride in a motorcycle doesn't mean you can win a race, just improving your group size doesn't mean you are ready for a fight.
Peetmoss
Member
CWL
IF you mean seasoned battle hardend NCO's I can agree with that. I firmly believe after you get over the peeing your pants phase of battle one can protect oneself and his friends relitivly well. (Not speaking from expierance though) I also 100% believe that if you think you have the finest equitment and training and can handle anything thrown at you it can only help when you acctually have to go risk life and limb.
IF you mean seasoned battle hardend NCO's I can agree with that. I firmly believe after you get over the peeing your pants phase of battle one can protect oneself and his friends relitivly well. (Not speaking from expierance though) I also 100% believe that if you think you have the finest equitment and training and can handle anything thrown at you it can only help when you acctually have to go risk life and limb.
TwoBlink has it right....
Losing your fine motor skills is not voluntary, its nothing training will address. The body's resources are devoted to survival skills such as hearing, seeing, running, and striking(these are not"fine" motor skills). We all still have a little caveman in us, like it or not.
Losing your fine motor skills is not voluntary, its nothing training will address. The body's resources are devoted to survival skills such as hearing, seeing, running, and striking(these are not"fine" motor skills). We all still have a little caveman in us, like it or not.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Well, telewinz, maybe it's the conditioned reflexes from quality training that will keep you alive long enough to become a "veteran". At some point, you get over being real excited when a cluster-ruckus breaks loose all around you. (Getting used to cluster-ruckuses is not necessarily a fun or survivable occupation.)
It is possible to learn to control one's emotions and fears, and thus control the flow of adrenalin. It's not easy, but it's possible. That learning process is enhanced by living in Condition Yellow rather than Condition White. Frequent consideration of the "What if...? potentials in life helps, as well.
And just livin' a long time makes a difference.
Art
It is possible to learn to control one's emotions and fears, and thus control the flow of adrenalin. It's not easy, but it's possible. That learning process is enhanced by living in Condition Yellow rather than Condition White. Frequent consideration of the "What if...? potentials in life helps, as well.
And just livin' a long time makes a difference.
Art
- Status
