Military M-1 carbine that has an M-2 trigger housing?

[Stand_Watie]

"IF YOU KNOW ANYONE ON THE
WEB THAT IS KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT
ATF REGULATIONS, ASK THEM IF IT
IS A VIOLATION TO HAVE A MILITARY M-1
CARBINE THAT HAS A M-2 TRIGGER
HOUSING"

A friend of mine asked me to pose this question. The local ATF tells him that the trigger housing makes it a "machine gun" despite the fact that it fires one round per trigger pull.

 

[El Rojo]

I am not expert, but I believe the trigger housing doesn't make it a FA (full auto), it is the receiver. So unless the receiver says M2, you should be fine. I mean if just having an M2 trigger group did it, then why not an M2 stock or M2 bayonet lug? Lots of people would have FA guns in that case.

 

[PMDW]

"Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226"

From what I understand though, the difference between the M1 and M2 carbines (from looking at the M1 and M2 I have at work) lies in the trigger housing. One is semi, one is auto. The receivers are the same, and the trigger housings attach the same way.

My less than professional assessment would be that the ATF field office was correct.

 

[dfariswheel]

In the 60's the old Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) sold M1 carbines to NRA members for $20.00.

Many of these were fitted with some M2 parts, including the trigger group.
I've seen DCM carbines with even the M2 trip still in place in the trigger group.

The difference between a semi-auto and full-auto carbine is the op rod, trigger guard, trip, selector switch.
Change any one of those and you don't have a full-auto carbine.

Usually the ATF would only start getting "hinky" about these carbines when someone installed a selector switch, since the other parts were necessary for even the semi-auto to function at all.

As long as the carbine doesn't have a full, functional automatic kit in it, it's legal,
and since the government SOLD these carbines this way to civilian's, they can't suddenly be illegal.

Unless the carbine is stamped M2, or has a function automatic kit, you're in the clear.
The local ATF either failed to understand exactly what you have, or they just misquoted the facts.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

M2 Carbine

When in doubt, query the ATF Firearms and Technology Branch (use
"if.." hypothetical) and keep the letter in response (may take six months
for reply).

Receiver marked M2 is *probably* considered a machinegun irregardless
of trigger components.
M1 with complete conversion kit (trigger components) definitely a no-no.
M1 with a mix of M2 FA and M1 SA trigger components even if semi-auto
function only is too iffy to bother with: M1 trigger components are cheap
and available and easy to swap out.

 

[El Rojo]

I thought there was a receiver difference on the M2 Carbine. Was I wrong? Tell me more.

 

[dfariswheel]

There IS no receiver difference between the M1 and M2 carbines, other than the number "2" stamped on the receiver.

One criteria for the automatic carbine was, it was to be something that could be retrofitted to semi-auto carbines.

Again, an M2 trigger guard DOES NOT make a carbine illegal.
As long as a COMPLETE M2 package is not installed, and the carbine cannot fire full-auto.....it's legal.

Years ago, the NRA Dope Bag had an piece about this, back when the DCM was selling carbines.
The carbine is somewhat a special case, in that the difference between a semi and full auto version is NOT a matter of major design differences.
It's simply a matter of individual parts, and unless ALL the parts are present.....you don't have a full-auto weapon.

Where questions would be asked would be if you had ALL the parts, except for one item.
Example would be a carbine with everything except the trip or the selector switch.

The only parts NOT needed for a semi-auto to function is the trip and selector, and the presence of these would raise problems.

One simple solution would be to check for any other M2 parts, like an M2 operating rod. If there isn't an M2 op rod, the carbine can't function no matter what other parts ar present.

If it just worrys you, simply replace the trigger guard with a non-M2 guard and the problem goes away.
As I recall the difference between an M1 and M2 trigger guard is a small clearance slot on the M2.
Something most people don't even notice.

 

[pete f]

For a while in the Mid nineties, M-1 carbines where available again, and we ordered a bunch, maybe 20 30 do not remember, what i do remember is we got enough M-2 parts to make four complete workable M-2's this one had a sear, this one had the switch, this one had the op rods etc. such fun we slapped them together played with them for a day or two and tossed all the switches and op rods to an undisclosed location and sold the rest as M-1 carbines. using Gi parts to make them up. The M-2 was a gas, neglible recoil, reasonably accurate, cheap to shoot. too bad the possibility of getting them grandfathered in is so thin...

 

[Kramer Krazy]

When I bought my two M1 carbines in 1992-93, you could purchase one that had many M2 parts in it. These were the mix-matched rifles being imported from other countries. When I bought my second M1 carbine, a local dealer had gotten five M1s in. I struck up a deal to pay a little more than his asking price, so I could get as many brand matching components for one gun (I was going with Inland, since I was able to assemble a nearly complete Inland gun from parts he had). I discovered that, just as pete f stated, there were almost enough parts to manufacture a complete M2. All that was missing was the disconnect level, selector switch, and selector spring. I was surprised that one gun actually had a disconnect block in it. From what I recall, you need all 7 control parts in your possession to get busted....and that is even if you do NOT have a gun to go with the parts. Here is the list of seven parts that classify as a machine gun all by themselves:

1) disconnector block
2) disconnector block spring
3) disconnector block plunger
4) selector
5) selector spring
6) hammer
7) disconnector lever

Other differences between the M1 and M2 are the bolt (the M2 bolt is heavier to decrease the cyclic firing rate), handguard, trigger housing, op rod (slide), sear, stock (notched for selector switch), and mag catch was redesigned.

 

[El Rojo]

Boy if this isn't probably one of the worst threads to come along in THR history. All this talk going on about FA guns in legal and political and I find out all you need are the parts on a M1 Carbine to make it FA. Very dangerous to know. Ignorance was surely bliss.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

When I was in the Army, I spent some time in a unit that was equipped with carbines. I don't recall if they were M-1s or M-2s. I believe they were M-1s, because I don't remember any selecter switch. But I clearly remember my First Sergeant showing me how to drop in a short length of dog tag chain to make them fire on full auto.

Of course, I don't remember now how to do it, nor do I have a carbine to experiment with. Does anyone know if this could be done with the M-1s?

 

[Bwana John]

I used to think the M-2 parts (that were not illegal) would be the best because of being the last design, and being beefed up for select fire.
After futzing with a couple of Carbines I learned that many M-2 parts were very worn from full auto fire.