Military sidearms through history?

[daniel (australia)]

Colt's Double Action Revolver Model 1909, chambered for the Cal. .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909.

Edited to add: the cartridge was based on the earlier .45 Colt, but with a rim of larger diameter and slightly thicker (and bevelled), for surer extraction. The 1909 revolver could also function with .45 Colt, but the final approved version of the 1909 Ball cartridge would not fit in the smaller SAA cylinder as the rim diameter was too large.

 

[Old Fuff]

Colt New Service M1909 in .45lc, maybe??

Could be, and was...

So strangelittleman is the winner!

A little later I'll fill in the blank spots with more information.

But yes, the Model 1909 was adopted specifically to be a "Moro Man- Stopper," and it proved to be exactly that. Why not the Model 1911 .45 Pistol? Because it wasn't ready yet, and there was a war on.

The Colt Single Actions that were issued were generally detested. They could only be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber, making them in effect a 5-shooter, were slow to load, had to be thumb-cocked for each shot, and the available ammunition was old, loaded with black powder, and the Frankfort Armory load that was originally intended to be used in Schofield or Colt revolvers with a reduced powder charge and 230 grain bullet. They were however a .45 - which generally beat the .38 Long Colt.

The Model 1909 was the last revolver adopted by the U.S. Army. The rest that came during the future were all "substitute standard."

 

[daniel (australia)]

I'd grant you that the revolver in question, while officially designated Colt's Double Action Revolver Model 1909 was a New Service, but the ".45lc" is not strictly correct. The new revolver was adopted with a new cartridge, the Cal. .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge, Model of 1909, and while these revolvers can function with .45 Colt the two cartridges aren't interchangeable.

By way of background, the .45 service cartridge adopted for use by the Army in 1873 was in a case 1.26" long, but that was replaced in 1874 with a shorter-cased (1.11") cartridge so as to suit both Colt and S&W revolvers. Hence the .45 Colt (long) or .45 Long Colt has become the designation of that earlier longer cartridge, to differentiate it from the shorter service round. The shorter cartridge however was the service version from 1874 onward, and in 1882 was upgraded to a solid head boxer primed case with a 230 gn bullet over 28 gns black powder.

Now as is well known, the US Navy and US Army adopted .38 revolvers in 1889 and 1892 respectively, using two fairly similar versions of the .38 Long Colt. The .45 ammunition didn't completely go out of production though, and I can't agree that at the time of the Phillipine campaign "the available ammunition was old". Indeed two million rounds of .45 revolver ball were produced at Frankfort Arsenal in 1901-1902 for the Phillipines campaign. Production continued up to at least 1908, with the introduction that year of a smokeless powder load.

The 1909 cartridge was a new development however, specifically for the new 1909 Model revolver. Among other things there was concern that the thin and rather narrow rim of the older .45 cartridge might lead to extraction problems with this new revolver, so the rim of the new cartridge was made thicker and of larger diameter than the older .45 service round and indeed thicker and of larger diameter than the .45 Colt (aka .45 LC). This was also done to prevent the new cartridge being used in SAA revolvers. The case was 1.274" long, and thus of roughly of the same length as the .45 Colt, and the cartridge loaded with smokeless powder. The 250 gn bullet was rated at 725 fps muzzle velocity. The 1909 cartridge only had a very short service life though of course, and went out of production before the US entered WWI.

BTW did you know that Frankfort Arsenal also developed a "Manstopper" load for the .45 revolver cartridge between 1904-1906? It was also a direct response to the Moros, and had a jacketed hollow point bullet, with longitudinal splits in the jacket. It didn't go into service though, no doubt due to all the fuss about the similar designs the British had come out with a little earlier, and the Hague Convention which resulted.

 

[Timthinker]

As strange as this may sound, General officers could be issued .32 or .380 Colt pistols years ago. In fact, General Eisenhower was issued a .38 Special snubbie during World War II, but I have never seen a photograph of him carrying a weapon.


Timthinker

 

[Old Fuff]

As strange as this may sound, General officers could be issued .32 or .380 Colt pistols years ago.

Those were General Officers Pistols, and issued by request only. They, with a special belt and holster were considered to be a unique badge of rank. Some were still being carried in Viet Nam.

Ike had both a Detective Special, and a .380 Pocket Automatic. He occasionally carried one or the other when visiting front lines in Europe. But unlike Gen. Patton he didn't make an issue of it. Ike was a more quite sort of officer. As a kid I met him for a few moments when he was running for president.

 

[Timthinker]

Old Fluff, those pistols were an option for carry that continued until the early 1970s, so that clearly puts them into the Vietnam era. I believe the Rock Island Arsenal issued the M15 pistol, a smaller version of the old 1911A1, for General officers after that time period.

I heard an interesting story about Eisenhower that you might be able to confirm. When Ike was president of Columbia University, he was rumored to carry a revolver to work since the campus was in a rough area of the city. An old New Yorker once told me that story and I have never forgotten it, although I can not vouch for its validity. I am glad you got to meet him.


Timthinker