Military Thompson Submachine Gun Questions

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, I've got a bunch, so hopefully the history buffs can help me out.

At the start of the Second World War, the M1928 Thompson was the only submachine gun in mass production amongst the allies. The British had the Lanchester, but it was a limited production item. Thus, the Thompson was used by the US, the British, the Canadians, the Australians, and a lot of other players.

The standard M1928 Thompson had the vertical foregrip and a roughly 800-900 rpm cyclic rate. To what extent was this used by the military?

The "Navy Model" Thompson, as often issued to the Marines in the Pacific (the Navy being the first of the armed forces to purchase the weapon) was identical to the regular M1928, but had a horizonal foreend and the cyclic reduced to 600rpm or so.

Questions:

Was the M1928 "Navy Model" used by the Army in Europe?

To what extent was the older 1928 model, with the vertical foreend, used by the Allies? (Although the straight-gripped model seems to be "standard", the vertical gripped model made all sorts of appearances.)

To what extent where the 50 round drums used and issued? How were they carried? I understand that the military favored the 20 round stick mags for obvious ease of carrying.

When was the 30 round stick mag introduced?

When did the M1/M1A1 Thompson enter mass production? Was it used in both Europe and the Pacific?

When did the M3 Grease Gun enter production, and when did it see mass issuance to the troops?

Thanks!

 

[shoobe01]

The first thing I will say is, get a subscription to Small Arms Review. Immediately. They talk about this sort of stuff all the time. Even the shotgun news has articles about some of this minituae in every issue. http://www.smallarmsreview.com/

I'm not gonna get too detailed, but from what I recall of my various readings:

The brits didn't use Thompsons in service per. se., just for Home Guards. They took too long to get there, and not too many were made. Often seen, because its easy to take photos back in england instead of on the front, I guess, and then there's Churchill with one...

A few vertical grips were used, but I can't remember how many. Seems like a few by people like the Navy out asia-way, and then a few out of necessity at the beginning of WW2. There were also many variants, and I can't recall all of them now. Some 'navy' type might have been used other place. Just not much.

I recalls some drums being issued as well, but mostly to early and limited issue units. Once the war go into full swing, no drums. And the M1 doesn't accept them either, I think. The stick was developed with the gun, I am sure. Its also way cheaper, and seems like it would be more reliable. And have you ever shot a gun with a drum? They are bulky and hard to shoulder well.

The M1 replaced the '28 completely, so for all branches and theaters. The semi-lame M2 was around 43-44, and the M3 was built starting in like 1945. I even seem to recall that some getting to troops before the war ended, but I could be wrong.

 

[dfariswheel]

The British made HEAVY use of the 1928 Thompson in the original commercial form with the pistol grip fore end, the 50 round drum, and a blued finish.
Later delivery guns were the same 1928 model used by America, with the parkerized finish, and horizontal fore end.

The Thompson was used heavily by Commandos, as well as regular British army units. In fact, the Thompson appears on both the Commando shoulder patch, and the Commando Memorial statue.

MANY hundreds of thousands of Thompson guns were shipped to England.
So many Thompson's were lost in the North Atlantic to German subs, people said the bottom of the Grand Banks were lined with Thompson guns, but still, many, many thousands were received and used.

The old American nickname "Tommy Gun" was taken by many Brits as "proof" the Thompson was actually a British designed gun made for them in America, since the nickname "Tommy" was used for British soldiers. Some Thompson guns were even stamped "Tommy Gun" in Britain as a moral booster.

A look at most any film or photos of British troops during the war shows plenty of Thompson guns. I have numerous photos of the Thompson being used by the Brits in North Africa, Burma, and Europe. I have one photo showing German Afrika Corps troops with captured Thompson guns with the pistol grip fore end and the drum.

I have seen photos of Chinese troops with early war Thompson's. French troops used Thompson's. The British cached Thompson's in France for later use by SOE agents.
So, the Thompson wasn't rare in Britain.

Both the British and the US had problems with the drum's complex design, and especially it's tendency to rattle, giving away troops location at night.

When the US finally started buying the Thompson gun, they were fitted with the horizontal Navy fore end from the start, and the 50 round drum was issued, since no 30 round mag was available yet.
These early US service guns were commercial-type guns except for the parkerized finish, and were officially designated as the Model 1928-A1.

Both the US and England issued special pouches to carry the 50 round drums.
As soon as the 30 round magazine was available, the drum was dropped from manufacture, but most British and many US troops continued to use them.

Later, to speed production, the Lyman adjustable rear sight and guard, the Cutts Compensator, and the finned barrel were deleted, along with other simplifications of the 1928.

The 1928 was VERY heavily used by all US troops all over the world. It was issued, and used along side of the later M1 and M1-A1 guns.
There are many combat pictures and films of the 1928 in use by US troops in Europe and elsewhere.

Both the M1 and the M1-A1 were heavily issued in both Europe and the Pacific. Again, numerous photos and films show them in use.

I believe the M1 was first made in 1942 and the M1-A1 in 1943.

The M3 Grease gun became available in 1944, and began to be issued in late '44. There are pictures of troops in Europe in early winter 1944 armed with the grease gun.

Although the various submachine guns were dropped from production during the war, huge numbers were made, and they continued to be issued and used along side one another.

I've seen one photo made during the battle of the Bulge, showing combat troops armed with a 1928, a M1-A1, AND a grease gun.
I've seen another photo showing two US troops firing Thompson guns out a window just before the war ended in Europe. One is firing an early 1928 with all the early 1928-A1 features, and another troop is firing a later M1-A1.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Wow, that's a lot of good info. Thanks!

 

[Johnny Guest]

Excellent post, - - -

dfariswheel. As I read the thread, I was mentally composing my reply. Happens you covered practically every single point I was going to make, and more besides.

One other historical point - - The famed "28 Navy Over stamp" variant - -
When the Navy was procuring their initial order of TSMGs, they specified several modifications of the 1921 model: Reduction of rate of fire and the horizontal foregrip were the most noticeable. Many of these guns were made up with remaining 1921 parts. The upper receivers, already stamped, "Model of 1921," were hand stamped with the figure "8" over the final "1." Some of these left an impression which looked like an "8" bisected by a vertical line. Most, though, had the "8" just slightly off-center, looking like a "B," or "192B" The result was sometimes mistakenly called the "192" or "192-B" gun.

There are so many variants of the basic TSMG that it is a "rich" and fertile field for collecting. "Rich" from the standpoint that even the most common and doggiest condition Thompson demands a high price today. One variant I handled some years back, at the Dallas Market Hall Gun Show: A 1928 with non-finned barrel, no compensator, vertical forestock rigged with sling swivel on the side, the simplest folded metal rear sight, without the protective wings of the M1A1, decent Parkerized finish, and British proof marks. It fairly screamed "Early World War II! Commandos! Tonight we raid Calais!"

Your mention of the various forces to which TSMGs were supplied recalled to me a story. A liberty ship with some Five Thousand Thompsons (and other munitions) aboard was sunk in a deep, DEEP Norwegian fjord. At today's prices, one fantasizes even such a cold, deep, salvage operation being worthwhile . . . .


Best,
Johnny

 

[Hkmp5sd]

The M1A1 was adopted in October, 1942, but didn't reach full scale production until the beginning of 1943. The M1A1 also would not accept the drum magazines.

A liberty ship with some Five Thousand Thompsons (and other munitions) aboard was sunk in a deep, DEEP Norwegian fjord.

From 1941 to 1942, roughly 300,000 M1928A1 Thompsons were manufactured for shipment to England. It is believed that 200,000 of these were sent to the bottom of the Atlantic while enroute.

At today's prices, one fantasizes even such a cold, deep, salvage operation being worthwhile . . . .

Don't remember the exact numbers, but thousands of Lend-Lease Thompsons still in original packaging have turned up in various arsenals of the former USSR countries. Thanks to the '68 CGA and '86 MG ban, they are still sitting there.

Collectors Trivia: The early 1928A1 Thompsons made for England through Lend-Lease used the "Calibre" spelling on the receiver.

 

[dfariswheel]

In 1921, Auto Ordnance didn't have a production plant, so they contracted with Colt to build the gun. Colt built enough receivers and parts to make up 15,000 Thompson's

From 1921 to just before the war, that's ALL the Thompson guns there were.

As above, when the Navy wanted a slower firing gun, Auto Ordnance brought Mr Paine, the actual designer of the 1921, back to modify the gun to the 1928. Since they were still using the original batch of 15,000 receivers, they were stamped with the "8" over the "1" in 1921. These are known as Navy "over stamp" guns.

As late as the later 1930's Auto Ordnance had MOST of those 15,000 guns still in stock.
The Thompson family and investors sold the company to Mr McGuire just in time for him to become fabulously rich making the gun during the war.

In early WWII, Auto Ordnance contracted the gun out again, this time to Savage. It wasn't until several years later that Auto Ordnance finally built their own plant in Bridgeport.

In the days leading up to the war, Thompson was the only SMG around, and HUGE orders for them were placed by Russia, France, China, England, and others. It's believed only England actually got big deliveries , but apparently Russia did get a fair number, where it was known as a "Chicago Piano" as a back-handed slap at American Capitalist and gangsters.

A good source of info on the early Thompson is the famous book "The Gun That Made The 20's Roar". This can be found in many libraries, and is still for sale at book sellers.

In the 1920's the Marines got their hands on some 1921 models through the US Post office when they were detailed to guard the US Mails from the early "Motor Bandits". A Marine guard force of three was detailed. One with a 1903 Springfield, one with a BAR, and one with a Thompson, all with 1911 pistols.
NOBODY was stupid enough to try on the Marines, and they never lost a single letter.

The Marines kept the 1921 guns, and used them in the "Banana Wars" in Central America, China, and WWII. I've seen a picture of a Marine SGT, in the Korean War, armed with an original 1921, complete with the pistol grip, and 50 round drum.

The 1928 Over stamp guns remained in service with the Navy up until the early 70's. Many Navy Reserve armories had one or two Thompson guns.
Navy SEALs used the guns with the 50 round drum as a point weapon in Vietnam.

In the days were a Colt-made Thompson brings $20,000 to $30,000 dollars, it's sickening to think of the huge numbers cut up for scrap since Korea.

What's really sickening is back in the 1960's, when a kid like me didn't have to nickels to rub together, you could by a DEWAT (Deactivated WAr Trophy)
Thompson for $75-$100.
The people doing the DEWAT process, just hated to ruin a great gun like this, so many of them were deliberately poorly welded. The barrel weld could be broken loose and a new barrel fitted with no problem.

I once saw an ad in a 60's Field and Stream magazine selling DEWAT M3 grease guns for about $20.00.

 

[Jim K]

IIRC, both the 50 rd drum and the 30 rd stick were produced for the military. The original 1921 gun came with only the 100 rd drum and 20 rd sticks.

FWIW, or for those who may not know, the mags were designated by Roman numbers: XX=20, XXX=30, L=50, C=100. This is what collectors mean in referring to a "C-drum" or "L-drum".

Jim

 

[MrMurphy]

There's a Time-Life WW2-photos book out there with a photo of a bunch of Russian troops marching (route march, about three thousand guys) in the snow. Full profile from the left side on a guy's shoulder a couple yards from the camera is an M1928 Thompson. Odd where you see things.


My father told me he saw a couple dozen Thompsons still in use when he was in Vietnam though not by normal Army troops.

 

[shoobe01]

I really didn't know british soldiers went into battle that much with the Thompson. I swear I just read that they didn't, but now I know better.

dfariswheel, Hkmp5sd and Johnny Guest really know this topic. I hope I have not shamed the family too much with my 'afaik' level of info.

To any of you knowledgable one, I have to ask: roughly what percentage of thompsons used by US forces do you think were 1928s? I myself see almost exclusively M1/M1As, but I am not as much a WW2 buff as some. And how many drums did we issue, how many were used (again, rough percentages or something)? I've seen the pouches, but don't understand if that was early and rare or fairly common.

 

[Mk VII]

a discussuion board all about Thompsons can be found at http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/
Frank's book, 'American Thunder', is also to be recommended.