MIM parts in Kimber

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SamlautRanger

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Ok, I keep on hearing all the metalurgist experts on this forum downplaying Kimbers because of MIM (metal injected molding) parts that are used in Kimbers. Who here has seen any of these parts fail or break??

I have a kimber and seems to work just fine for me. Plus the LAPD swat, tacoma police, and now some of the USMC MEU-SOC personnel seem to be using them without any problems.

If there are some problems with MIM parts in a kimber, what parts in a Kimber are exactly MIM??? That way I can replace these less superior parts with parts from Brown or Wilson. Thanks.
 
See:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=91285

I posted a poll to see if most cast/MIM failures were defective QA/QC -- "infant mortality" failures -- where bad parts break quickly and good ones have a normal long life.

Or if parts failure was more randomly distributed throughout the operational life suggesting the parts design (choice of materials and method of manufacture) was inadaquate for the parts purpose.

The "forged" extractor in my pre-series 80 Colt Government Model broke after I'd guess 7-8000 rounds. The "cast" extractor in my Charles Daly EMS broke a bit over 5000 rounds. It had been "retensioned" after about 800 rounds, I never touched the Colt extractor other than to clean it occasionally. The Colt cost $500+ in 1983 dollars, the CD cost $380 in 2004 dollars.

--wally.
 
I have a Kimber SST Compact with 6,000 rounds through and not one bit of trouble with any of the parts. you can get a bad part regardless of how it is made. I think that a lot of companies that bad mouth the MIM parts is because they sell the machined and forged parts so they are trying get their piece of the money spent on upgrading guns
 
In kimbers own words"small parts like the slide release,thumb safety and sight's are made by this method" I also believe the beavertail and some of the internal parts are MIM as well! You can get all these parts from wilson or ed brown. hope this helps :evil:
 
If you do a search there should be some past threads on MIM part failure in Kimber's (as well as other makes) and so far as Kimber is concerned the part that most likely failed was the slide stop.

There are two issues (at least) concerning MIM parts. The first has too do with the process, which uses a mix of powder metal in a binder. The second is, that the reason these companies went to MIM parts in the first place was because they were less expensive then similar parts machined out of "real" steel. Consequently they tended to buy the parts from the lowest bidder. Generally speaking, the lowest bidder will supply the lowest quality parts.

I don't really have a dog in this fight because my older Colt's and USGI pistols were made out of honest-to-goodness-real-steel. But I have noticed that the many threads that show up on this and other forums concerning bad performance in 1911 style guns are about Kimbers, S.A. and other recently produced pistols - not the older ones. Somehow I think there is a message there ...
 
But I have noticed that the many threads that show up on this and other forums concerning bad performance in 1911 style guns are about Kimbers, S.A. and other recently produced pistols - not the older ones. Somehow I think there is a message there ...
Click to expand...

Yes, the message is they're selling a lot of NEW handguns and a few of them break.
 
Don't have a dog in this deal either. I do have my druthers, I do observe and pay attention to a certain group of folks.

One example I'll cite. I was at the Tulsa gun show, I was not the only person buying OLD Colt parts. I ran into a buddy of mine from down home while up there. He bought all the steel triggers I saw,[ yes the infamous steel trigger thread] two dozen tool steel extractors and continued to buy "couple of dozens " of various Old Colt parts. He is removing the internals of some "recent productions" . He also thinks the Ithaca Slide I told him about will work on a old Ithaca frame...he is putting together the Old Guns.
 
>> Yes, the message is they're selling a lot of NEW handguns and a few of them break. <<

Yup ... A few of them break, and even more have chronic malfunctions. Not all of course, but enough to make you wonder. I also wonder why it is that older guns, those made from around 1912 through the middle-latter 1970's and have a track record, don't have a history of part failure or malfunctions of the kind reflected in the most recent production? All so, if you want to look at total numbers a lot more guns were made during those years - that included two World Wars - then have been produced during the 1980's to date.

Of course no firearms that have been produced in large numbers have a perfect record, but it's no secret that just about every manufacturer has been cheapening up here and there on parts and labor to cut costs. Cutting costs is no crime if the necessary quality remains, but evidently this is not always the case.

It’s not that a decent, reliable 1911 style pistol can’t be produced at a reasonable price. Our own “1911Tuner†took a basic Springer Mil-Spec, replaced a couple of parts with better quality ones, tweaked the way some pieces were fitted – and then ran it through a 1000-round test without a bobble while dunking the gun in mud and other things I don’t even want to think about.

So it can be done. The problem’s that today’s buyers aren’t demanding that it be done.
 
Another MIM part that has been reported to be trouble in Kimbers is the barrel bushing. They have failed when the skirt broke and let the recoil spring plug go down range.

It is my belief that for many parts, such as MSH's, grip safeties, manual safeties, where there is no significant strain, MIM is OK. Where there is a serious breaking or snapping strain, there may be failures. I also believe QC on MIM is just as important as on any other type of material. A forged part will be wrong if it is made of poor quality metal or given bad heat treatment. As to internal 1911 extractors, the ONLY proper material is high quality spring steel, meaning machined from spring steel, and properly tempered. Forging, casting, MIM or other methods of manufacture will NOT work.

As of now, some major makers, S&W in particular, have been using MIM for some time for revolver triggers and hammers with no reports of problems. I think they do their own MIM in house, which could be the reason for a good quality product.

Jim
 
MIM doesnt bother me. I have three Mimbers that run great, two are my primary and secondary carry guns.
 
some of the USMC MEU-SOC personnel seem to be using them without any problems.
Click to expand...

No, they aren't.

The seven MEUs and the one MCSOCOM DET-1 are not the same thing. DET-1 uses a Kimber as thier interim CQB pistol. MEU Force Recon detachments use the MEU(SOC) .45, which is hand-assembled by armorers in Quantico, VA. Some of which will now be replaced by the Springfield Professional model.
 
Another MIM part that has been reported to be trouble in Kimbers is the barrel bushing. They have failed when the skirt broke and let the recoil spring plug go down range.
Click to expand...
That would be a problem since Kimber doesn't use MIM barrel bushings.

Kimber MIM parts and location of sprue marks (little circles)

1. Slide stop (inside surface near front)
2. Thumb safety (inside surface near front)
3. Sear (outside surface on "feet")
4. Disconnector (on starboard side)
5. Swartz push rod (starboard side above and below slot)
6. Swartz FP block (top)
7. Grip Safety (in hammer notch and in front of notch)
8. Hammer (body, both sides)
9. Mag Catch (not the turning locking pin) (marks on top)
10. Firing Pin Stop Plate (inside surface)
11. Ejector (inside)
12. Plunger tube (somewhere ?)
And on newer models, the "Tactical Extractor" hook part.
 
Ok, so where is a good gunsmith to send your Kimber to get the MIM parts replaced with Tool Steel parts. And any idea on how much that would cost?
 
get a Brownell's catalog and start looking at what you want to replace. the price will start adding up fairly fast plus whatever the gunsmith charges to do any fitting
 
Originally posted by gunsnrovers
The mold ejection pin marks (little circles) aren't only a sign of MIM.
Cast parts will often have these as well.
Click to expand...
Sprue and flash marks are indeed as indicative of casting as of MIM, if not more so. Properly cast steel parts can retain a sharp edge, whereas up close, MIM often produces 'softer' corners/edges ---the MIM part is after all finally sintered WITHOUT benefit of a strictly-shape-dictating mold, and the shape edges can 'slump' just a bit.

If the MIM part in question is of healthy cross-section and not subjected to great tensile or shear stress, then there should be little problem. MIM aside, I have often wondered about the properties of WWI & WWII Colt/RR/US&S/etc. steel compared to today's forged and investment-cast parts.


:)
 
USGI and Colt commercial 1911 pistols always had forged frames, slides, barrels, and most internal lockwork made from high-carbon steel, and this was so during World War Two. During the later part of the war Remington-Rand developed a "hard" slide that was incorporated by all of the government's contractors and used in post-war USGI rebuilds and Colt commercial pistols. The specifications are available on copies of the USGI blurprints and drawings.
 
That's not what I said. I said the marks are not only a sign of MIM. The marks can also be seen on cast parts. ie just because you see the little circles doesn't mean the part is MIM.
 
That's not what I said. I said the marks are not only a sign of MIM. The marks can also be seen on cast parts. ie just because you see the little circles doesn't mean the part is MIM.
Click to expand...
True but all of the parts I listed are MIM, not cast.
 
Originally posted by gunsnrovers
That's not what I said. I said the marks are not only a sign of MIM. The marks can also be seen on cast parts. ie just because you see the little circles doesn't mean the part is MIM.
Click to expand...

Dude, that's what I said you said:

Originally posted by horge
Sprue and flash marks are indeed as indicative of casting as of MIM, if not more so.
Click to expand...

To wit, those flashlines and hickeys more readily suggest casting,
rather than MIM, whose mold-less sintering process tends to slump
such artefacts out of high profile.



---------------

Hi Fluff,

I didn't know the steel specs were right on the prints.
Thanks.




horgey
 
Horge,

This borders on veering off topic because it doesn't relate directly to the MIM process, but in the motorcycle world the state of metalurgy is far more advanced today than it was in WWII, especially regarding alloys. I would guess that much of that progress is also evident in the metals used to manufacture firearms.
 
"I have a kimber and seems to work just fine for me."

Me too. I did replace a part here and a part there on my Stainless Gold Match just as a learning experience, but by the time I started in on it it had about 9,000 rounds through it.

John
 
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