Frohickey
Member
Scotty: Aye sir, the more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain
Minigun problems or why our soldiers can't fight when SHTF
- Thread starter Aikibiker
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Scotty: Aye sir, the more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain
Frohickey
Member
No. You do not need a minigun that works when the main power supply is down. You need a lightweight and inexpensive two-way communication with the home base or better yet, the AC-130, or A-10 providing ground cover. That is what was missing.
A mini-gun is a little bit on the heavy side, and even it it just so happens to be pointed in the general direction, you can still get flanked, and in a crashed helicopter, it not doing you any good.
Better would have been take aimed shots, and establish a perimeter. Now, if the Army were to make a supershovel that can dig a manhole-sized hole in 10 seconds....
A mini-gun is a little bit on the heavy side, and even it it just so happens to be pointed in the general direction, you can still get flanked, and in a crashed helicopter, it not doing you any good.
Better would have been take aimed shots, and establish a perimeter. Now, if the Army were to make a supershovel that can dig a manhole-sized hole in 10 seconds....
Question about this statement, which is aren't miniguns using ammo with electric primers?
Seems mechanically activated, percussion primers would mean major wear on firing pins.
Hence, no compatibility with light weapons for minigun rounds.
wingnutx
Member
Also, you can grab an M-16 mag from your buddy and fire from that when your belts run out. I LOVE that feature.
Minigun has a cyclic rate of 6000rds minute. You won't even be able to carry one minutes' worth of ammo. You also have to include a tripod mount system to be able to stabilize such a weapon.
Useless as infantry weapon. Not even useful as vehicle mounted anti-personell weapon. It is an airborne weapon system, and it works as such.
The minigun used in "Predator" was a pain in the ***, Jesse Ventura had so many cables run up his leg and back to power the thing that he wasn't able to move. It's a movie everyone.
Useless as infantry weapon. Not even useful as vehicle mounted anti-personell weapon. It is an airborne weapon system, and it works as such.
The minigun used in "Predator" was a pain in the ***, Jesse Ventura had so many cables run up his leg and back to power the thing that he wasn't able to move. It's a movie everyone.
Triad is correct ...
The bigger Vulcans could be electricaly, hydraulicaly, or pneumaticaly driven. They could even be gas driven by bleeding off chamber pressure to drive the barrels, (but the gun needed to be initiated by an external drive source). Also, different rotating cannons could use either electric or percussion primers. It depends on the application. As I understand, there is work being done to build a single gatling gun design that will fire either percussion or electricaly primed ammo. (Navy prefers percussion ammo, Airforce likes electric ammo). The reason for electric ammo is the fact that the design requires fewer moving parts, and is therefore a more reliable gun (assuming, of course, that your firing voltage is always available). Also, on an electric gun, there is nothing to 'cock', so there's not a need for hammers or strikers and such.
Cyclic rate would be an easy thing to vary regardless of the drive system (the M61A1 has two rates of fire). The problem is, as already mentioned, the weight and the requirement of carrying a vast amount of ammunition. This was the reason the Gatling design was ditched shortly after the turn of the last century. The Maxim gun was transportable and, although much slower than the contemporary Gatlings, it threw enough lead to meet the need ...
The bigger Vulcans could be electricaly, hydraulicaly, or pneumaticaly driven. They could even be gas driven by bleeding off chamber pressure to drive the barrels, (but the gun needed to be initiated by an external drive source). Also, different rotating cannons could use either electric or percussion primers. It depends on the application. As I understand, there is work being done to build a single gatling gun design that will fire either percussion or electricaly primed ammo. (Navy prefers percussion ammo, Airforce likes electric ammo). The reason for electric ammo is the fact that the design requires fewer moving parts, and is therefore a more reliable gun (assuming, of course, that your firing voltage is always available). Also, on an electric gun, there is nothing to 'cock', so there's not a need for hammers or strikers and such.
Cyclic rate would be an easy thing to vary regardless of the drive system (the M61A1 has two rates of fire). The problem is, as already mentioned, the weight and the requirement of carrying a vast amount of ammunition. This was the reason the Gatling design was ditched shortly after the turn of the last century. The Maxim gun was transportable and, although much slower than the contemporary Gatlings, it threw enough lead to meet the need ...
Hopefully covered as not doable by now? Now if you had a MK-19 mounted in the helo too...
Been around for years. The original method was to dump a full clip from a Garand straight down in the dirt, scoop away loose dirt as deep as possible, insert demolition block, prime, back up and fire. Return and tidy up excavation.
Something I want to try personally, nobody will give me a block of Comp B or C-4 though.
With regards to Somalia and Afghanistan our crews and rescue teams did as good as can be expected given the circumstances they found themselves in.
Been around for years. The original method was to dump a full clip from a Garand straight down in the dirt, scoop away loose dirt as deep as possible, insert demolition block, prime, back up and fire. Return and tidy up excavation.
Something I want to try personally, nobody will give me a block of Comp B or C-4 though. With regards to Somalia and Afghanistan our crews and rescue teams did as good as can be expected given the circumstances they found themselves in.
"Better would have been take aimed shots, and establish a perimeter. Now, if the Army were to make a supershovel that can dig a manhole-sized hole in 10 seconds...."
The Army used to have foxhole digger. I think it was on a collapsible tripod and fired straight into the ground. Then there are cratering charges that make a big hole and turn the dirt into the density of self-rising flour. Combat Engineers have those.
All in all, those fellas done good faced with the hand they were dealt.
The Army used to have foxhole digger. I think it was on a collapsible tripod and fired straight into the ground. Then there are cratering charges that make a big hole and turn the dirt into the density of self-rising flour. Combat Engineers have those.
All in all, those fellas done good faced with the hand they were dealt.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Electric powered miniguns were designed with particular roles in mind where the high cyclic rate was needed and that was in a bird on the move than needed to lay down considerable fire power, usually against people or light equipment. The gun was not designed or intended for use on the ground and without power to it.
Does this hamper our soldiers' ability to defend themselves? No, not at all any more than cannons are fairly useless for CQB operations, although a nice civil war cannon loaded with grapeshot would do very nicely.
Helicopters on the ground, artillery, airplanes on the ground, etc., have to be protected with other means. A plane on the ground can no more drop bombs on the enemy than I can.
Does this hamper our soldiers' ability to defend themselves? No, not at all any more than cannons are fairly useless for CQB operations, although a nice civil war cannon loaded with grapeshot would do very nicely.
Helicopters on the ground, artillery, airplanes on the ground, etc., have to be protected with other means. A plane on the ground can no more drop bombs on the enemy than I can.
SDC
Member
You also have to remember that the juice is needed not only to run the gun itself, but to power the mechanism that pulls the belt into the gun; a hand-powered minigun would not only have to rotate the barrels (feeding, firing, extracting, and ejecting), it would also have to pull a 50' or longer belt into the gun at the same time. Not really feasible at this point, I think.
SDC ...
AFAIK, most mini guns use a continuous close-ended 'belt', (called an 'element train'), that draws the rounds out of a spiral 'helix' in the gun's magazine. A long belt is not the problem, it's the all up weight of the gun and the ammo ...
AFAIK, most mini guns use a continuous close-ended 'belt', (called an 'element train'), that draws the rounds out of a spiral 'helix' in the gun's magazine. A long belt is not the problem, it's the all up weight of the gun and the ammo ...
Sean Smith
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Aikibiker,
No offense, but your post basically shows you have no idea what you are talking about. The whole premise of this topic is incredibly ignorant. The miniguns worked fine in Somalia, as they have for pretty much the entire time they have been in service. The problem in the Mog was that entire helicopters were getting blown out of the sky. The tactics, operations, strategy and grand strategy were what was broke, not the minigun.
Hard to believe you read Black Hawk Down and came to the conclusion the miniguns were to blame...
No offense, but your post basically shows you have no idea what you are talking about. The whole premise of this topic is incredibly ignorant. The miniguns worked fine in Somalia, as they have for pretty much the entire time they have been in service. The problem in the Mog was that entire helicopters were getting blown out of the sky. The tactics, operations, strategy and grand strategy were what was broke, not the minigun.
Hard to believe you read Black Hawk Down and came to the conclusion the miniguns were to blame...
SDC
Member
B]"AFAIK, most mini guns use a continuous close-ended 'belt', (called an 'element train'), that draws the rounds out of a spiral 'helix' in the gun's magazine. A long belt is not the problem, it's the all up weight of the gun and the ammo ..."[/B]
That's true for the larger versions of the Minigun (20mm and 30mm), but the 5.56mm and 7.62mm versions still need to use links; they couldn't get the proper round-to-round spacing needed for reliable feeding unless they had a mechanism to keep the rounds ready to be picked up. If you can find a video of the Knob Creek shoot (or get a chance to go), you can see piles of both brass and links under Ciener's minigun.
That's true for the larger versions of the Minigun (20mm and 30mm), but the 5.56mm and 7.62mm versions still need to use links; they couldn't get the proper round-to-round spacing needed for reliable feeding unless they had a mechanism to keep the rounds ready to be picked up. If you can find a video of the Knob Creek shoot (or get a chance to go), you can see piles of both brass and links under Ciener's minigun.
Agree with the "It might be usefull and would be nice" aspect of the mini-gun but...
Gotta remember we lost 19 men (which was obviuosly 19 too many), they lost near 6000 by most accounts. When your massivly outnumbered and you still turn in a 300+ to 1 KIA ratio I don't think equipment is the problem.
Gotta remember we lost 19 men (which was obviuosly 19 too many), they lost near 6000 by most accounts. When your massivly outnumbered and you still turn in a 300+ to 1 KIA ratio I don't think equipment is the problem.
Aikibiker
Member
You're absolutely right Blueduck. It really ticks me off to hear people speaking about that battle as if we lost it. The fact is our soldiers accomplished their initial objectives and when things went to hell they fought bravely and fiercely bringing about one of the greatest military victories in human history. What were the odds there? One hundred men against an entire city? And they still accomplished the mission of retrieving Aidid's advisors.
I still stand by my assertion that had there been heavy weapons in the downed blackhawks that could have been salvaged to use in their defense, they would have been better off.
In the Afghanistan crash their is documented evidence that the crew tried to get the miniguns working to provide supporting fire to the soldiers defending the crash site.
Throwing as much lead at the enemy as possible is a good thing.
I still stand by my assertion that had there been heavy weapons in the downed blackhawks that could have been salvaged to use in their defense, they would have been better off.
In the Afghanistan crash their is documented evidence that the crew tried to get the miniguns working to provide supporting fire to the soldiers defending the crash site.
Throwing as much lead at the enemy as possible is a good thing.
Rebel Gunman HK
member
Those mini's sure would have come in handy. But it seems typical to me from what I experienced in the Army, that all the availible resources wouldnt be availible when needed.
MrAcheson
Member
Would it have been nice to be able to use those miniguns? I suppose. The rescuers did dismount some of the kevlar armor plates off the blackhawk floors to use for cover. A pneumatic minigun hooked to a pig would at least be good for a few bursts I suppose.
The point is that nothing would have really saved the soldiers in Somalia though. They were vastly outnumbered and outgunned. Once the situation started to go south they should have had an AC130 there along with all the air support they could get. As it was the rescue mission was so badly run that some of the soldiers had to walk out behind the convoy because nobody thought to leave enough room for them.
The point is that nothing would have really saved the soldiers in Somalia though. They were vastly outnumbered and outgunned. Once the situation started to go south they should have had an AC130 there along with all the air support they could get. As it was the rescue mission was so badly run that some of the soldiers had to walk out behind the convoy because nobody thought to leave enough room for them.
AmericanFreeBird
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Dual or better yet Quad .50's
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