MIXED HEADSTAMP RIFLE CARTRIDGE HANDLOADING?

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In my experience Winchester, Remington, Hornady, and Nosler brass have always been close enough for me to use the same load data. I still separate the brass and will load in batches to get best accuracy. I may load up some 165 gr hunting loads with Nosler brass and use the Hornady brass for target loads etc. There may be others, but those brands are the ones I have experience with.

Federal brass for me has always needed slightly less powder to achieve the same results and military brass even less powder. I no longer have any Federal brass and only use military brass for mid range plinking loads where I'm not concerned about extreme accuracy or speed.
 
Not a bad idea just to use them for cast bullet use though...

I think GOOD cast bullet loads need at least as much care as jacketed.

But not everything is shot hunkered down over a bench. When you get to where the difference of over or under a minute of angle matters from offhand, then you can do "match grade" everything.
 
Lots of good info and discussion.

The perceived safety concern has always been a pressure spike with smaller volume brass.

Using 30-06, 4350 powder and 165 grain bullet for an example, max pressure occurs somewhere between 4 and 12 inches down the bore and then pressure tapers off as the bullet travels further down the bore.

Volume at max pressure is the case volume plus 8 inches of .308 diameter. The variations in case volume becomes an insignificant variable in max pressure. So, no pressure spike between brass.

Don't sweat mixed rifle head stamps unless you are bench shooting in competition and you are aiming to win, IMO.
 
Yes, I agree; lot's of great responses to my query. And what you mention is my precise concern; any possibility of high pressure spiking.

Some are happy if it goes "bang", and has reasonable accuracy, while others like higher velocity and best possible terminal ballistics, albeit again with reasonable accuracy. (Yes, "reasonable accuracy" is highly user specific.)

I fall into the latter camp. I like all the performance each cartridge is capable of providing. Why spend extra money and deal with toting a longer barrel around, then not load the ammo to potential? Or put another way, why take the advantages of a shorter barrel, then handicap it even further by down loading the ammo? Just my thoughts.

Back to the matter at hand. Yes, my worry is working up a higher velocity load, then at some point running into too high a pressure due to the variation in case capacity encountered when using mixed brass. After all, we've been told to download a full grain to start when using heavier military brass, and that's a good bit at these case volumes.

???

Edit to add: So if you measure and get an average volume for each headstamp, how would one divide them into "camps"? (XX cc plus or minus how much for each grouping of cases for loading?)

Thanks for all the comments thus far!
Vettepilot
 
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Mmmm, mixed headstamp .308 range pick ups.............hope you found all the berdan primed brass! :rofl:
 
Actually, that's not an issue this time. I've got a cool source that universal decaps and cleans the brass, then sells it at a really reasonable price, and he's close by!

Otherwise, yeah Berdans can be a hassle sometimes with range brass.

Vettepilot
 
Why spend extra money and deal with toting a longer barrel around, then not load the ammo to potential? Or put another way, why take the advantages of a shorter barrel, then handicap it even further by down loading the ammo? Just my thoughts.

It depends on the purpose. I don't load ammo for my M1a to the ragged edge... that action does not like that. Further, it's a 16" barrel, so I don't expect the same velocity vs a 20" or 22" barrel, and certainly not equal to my 24" Savage bolt gun. Now, the Savage I push... I'm not stupid with it, but I'm trying to extract everything I can... that's why I opted for the 24" barrel, vs the 20". And then there is my Savage 99... I've actually shot it farther ( out to 900yds) than my bolt gun (700yds)... with cast bullets and lower velocity, but I don't expect MOA accuracy out of it, either.
 
Ron what was the condition of the cases? Did they have powder residue, or sparkling clean with SS pins?

I have found in my testing that you need to add a drop of soap to 8 oz of water to break the surface tension. Does not take much but it prevents bubbles from being trapped.
Sparkling clean and I even brushed the insides. Yes, that is correct on the soap, I used dish soap and a syringe to fill the cases. The cases are primed now with CCI 200 large rifle primers and I'll likely load them with AA 2495 powder and 168 grain Sierra match king bullets. On the soap a droplet goes a long way.

The chronograph will be my Oehler 35P. Seriously I don't expect much change but we will see what we get. :)

Ron
 
I have to ask, how much accuracy at how many yards do we wish to obtain and (no offense) are you and your rifle capable of telling the difference?

I have only recently started shooting rifle and reloading. In my case it is 223 Rem. Shooting for accuracy to 200/300yds which is the max of our range. Now as I work at this range and have access to left range brass I have now started limiting myself to PMC, LC and PSD brass as it is the most plentiful though I have now also started keeping F C and Norma brass as I am seeing a good bit of Norma. I was also keeping GFL but have been finding that with some I am getting split necks after just one reload.

I keep the PMC because I found it to be fairly consistent and I do not need to work primer pockets for crimps. So that is what I keep, all else goes into the recycle bucket.
 
Keep an eye on the FC brass as it tends to be quite good, but soft and often not good for many reloads. YMMV.

As far as the crimps, that doesn't bother me. However I do prefer swaging them out over cutting them as I feel it's better. (Just me; no proof...) I would like to have one of the bench mounted cam type swagers but I won't pay what they want for them and don't have time to build one just now. So I use the RCBS press style swaging kit in my cast iron press, saving my aluminum presses from the stress. (Tho' not that big a deal.) I made a special die for the RCBS swagers with a floating sleeve that centers the brass, making for a less fiddly process.

I saw an interesting video on swaging primer pockets smaller, thus saving brass with loose pockets. He used a rod down into the case, with a large ball bearing at the primer pocket. A few whacks with the hammer, and the pocket passed the pin gauge test. Any comments on that idea?

Oh boy, that'll cause a flood of "JUST THROW THEM AWAY" comments, though I'm just curious if the process is viable. Obviously, if you've had to trim several times, the brass is stretched and should be retired, even if you can't feel a sep ridge inside...

Vettepilot
 
A couple of the long range bench rest guys I know say that the neck tension of annealed brass will vary from brand to brand so to pick one and develop your load and stick to it. Me thats never been a concern though.
 
For hunting in MI and general range or practice ammo I use mixed cases all the time. I do not load anywhere near max with any of them and usually do not have an issue being around 1-1.5 MOA. For hunting sometimes I'll separate by head stamp for consistency sake, but not loading near max I don't think I can shoot the difference.

If you are chasing 1/8 variances on your group size you are playing a different game than me so you'll want everything to be as consistent as possible. Separate head stamps, and probably separate the same head stamps by volume.

-Jeff
 
Can someone run a test with every HS that they have and a proven OCW load.

After rereading this post I’m changing my position.

I use the bottom side of the capacity range more than the top but o have run 43.6 grains of Varget in a Winchester case even though I built the load in a FC case. Both worked fine.

If it’s a forgiving load not at the maximum charge it should work pretty good.
 
If you use maximum loads, where the temperature of the day might blow the primer, than using mixed cases is bad. I use mid pressure loads in my 30-06's and 308 Win's, loads that were used by many target shooters in many guns, on many days, and I don't have issues with changes in brass, primers, or even make of bullets. What I mean by bullets are the 168 match bullets, Sierra, Speer, Hornady, Nosler, I could load any of those bullets and not experience any pressure or function problems, and could mix primers and brass. I would shoot all the same primer and charge, brass varying, and out to 300 yards, I can hold the NRA ten ring at 300 yards.

These rifles are sporting rifles in 30-06, not bench or match rifles. I think these groups are fine, considering the brass was not sorted by headstamp. So I had R-P, W/W, Nosler, Hornady, LC different years. maybe some Greek, etc. Shoots fine

HB9skFG.jpg

LkbRc58.jpg

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If I can shoot 17 shots within 6 inches at 300 yards with a pre WW2 era M70, I am not worried about case type.

by the way, the Weaver 4X on the 1939 M70 is a very old Weaver, I think it is an El Paso Weaver, so old I was not interested in touching the elevation or windage knobs, as old scopes may move the group a graduation, or not, and not until a couple of shots later when the reticle jumps! Once I found this rifle shoots very well, I installed a newer scope. The optics on that old Weaver are not the best, it was very gray in over cast conditions.

I have shot better groups in NRA Highpower Competition out to 300 yards with my 223 AR15's. I had baggies of brass, all reloaded the same number of times, same primer, but mixed headstamp, and I would load them all with the same bullet and powder charge, and shoot cleans sitting RF and prone RF out to 300 yards.

However, I always felt that at 600 yards, it was best practice to use same headstamp, same everything else. Proving at 600 yards that changes in one component or not makes a difference, requires access to a 600 yard range, and lots of range time. Which I don't have. My F Class buds are shooting groups way inside anything I am doing with hunting rifles, and they are absolutely obsessive compulsive with their reloading practices. However that sport, like bench rest, has greatly reduced the human factor, which is the greatest source of error in hand held weapons. When shooters put a rifle rest, on a 600 lb concrete bench, and the only thing they touch is the trigger, they are eliminating sources of error, such as heart beat, flinch, rigidity of holding the weapon, etc. So they are seeing things with their loads that are within my hold with a sling, or a non target rifle.

Generally, it is better to load a lot of ammunition and shoot it, then spending that time, creating ammunition following bench rest reloading practices. One shooting bud, who won several 1000 yard events at Perry (sling shooter), he bought good brass (Lapau) used CCI Benchrest primers, loaded the cases, used a good bullet, and shot the stuff. And that was good enough for a National Championship.
 
My 2c, for what it's worth. I don't sort my brass. I don't weigh my brass, or my bullets. I'm not shooting past 300 yards, either. My rifles are hunting rifles, and so I load for them accordingly. My '06 will shoot .5" at 100; my .222 will shoot just as well at the same range if not a little better. I use good bullets and good powder, weigh each charge, and make sure my seating depth is consistent, as well as my COL. And so far, I've had good luck doing it that way. Were I to enter into long range shooting, I might change what I do. For now, this is good enough. So, unless you're shooting long range, don't sweat the headstamps.

Mac
 
Thanks for all the input guys. As mentioned, I'm not shooting 308 in long range. My concern is that I do like to load for high velocity though, and worry that doing that with mixed headstamps could lead to some over pressure events. Not being sure how much case volume affects max pressure led me to pose the question here.

Unfortunately, I think volume measuring the various headstamped cases is the only real way to stay out of trouble in this case, though I still don't know what volume tolerances to use. I suppose the only way to know would be to spend some quality time with Quickload. Guess I need to quit putting off buying it! It's rather pricey though, and I'm rather surprised that in this day and age of technology, that a competing, more affordable software has not come out.

Apparently there is a similar program out there as shareware, but it needs more time to fill out it's database with our powders, as I believe it's based in Europe, and thus has more of their powder data.

Darn it! If Quickload were something like $39.95, instead of 150$ plus, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, as I'm sure many of us would...

Vettepilot
 
I have been wrestling with this very question. I have a bunch of Frontier 5.56 brass, about 125 cases, and a bag of mixed brass with about 130 cases. I think I’m going to keep the matching brass for my scoped rifle and load the mixed brass for my iron sighted rifle.

I have what I hope will be a good load for the iron sighted rifle. I’ll probably pull a few of the matching cases to verify that, then load the rest the same.
 
We all started like you. I used brass indiscriminately until I got a hang fire loading RP brass with a load built in LC brass. It was on the bottom edge of the charge range, I wasn’t using magnum primers and it was cold out. I was determined not to have that happen again so I did some reading to troubleshoot the problem.

My solution after that was to shoot brass from Lapua to LC on the bottom half of the capacity chart. That leaves out Hornady, Winchester, RP, Norma.

Now I load to max with the rest which includes Starline, LC, LC LR, FC, PPU 7.62x51 and Lapua. Loads work interchangeable except for Lapua but I’m usually working up loads separate with that anyway.

The only downside is that max is MAX in this brass and I can never get there with the brass I use. You will run out of room in the case with most extruded powders.
 
Apparently there is a similar program out there as shareware, but it needs more time to fill out it's database with our powders, as I believe it's based in Europe, and thus has more of their powder data.
Vettepilot

There is another German offering, called Gordons Reloading Tool, or GRT and after you have registered on this site, it can be downloaded for free. It is work in progress, and the US powders are well represented. You need Windows 10 or Linux to run it.

There is also an online internal ballistics simulator, a British offering, also free to use on any device that has a browser. Mainly for European shooters, but the US powders are well represented. You need to use the powder space behind the loaded bullet to use this app, however, not the case capacity to overflowing.
 
As others have stated, you're better off selling everything and getting brass from the same mfg/same lot. Then you can swage/trim/weigh/cull everything to your specifications. Then you can keep them sorted by # of firings, annealing, etc.

I have cases set aside for the 223rem and 308w for specific rifles/loads. After that I have piles of brass for blammo ammo/dirt clod killers @ 10 paces/fun.

FWIW:
A $200 rifle that is known for it's flimsy stock (savage axis 223rem) unaltered/used as it came from the factory. Home swaged jacketed bullets made out of range lead (hill pickins) and 22lr cases. The brass was range pick-ups that were sorted to an extremely high level. You know, did the primer pockets, fl size and trimmed to length, annealed, sorted by make and then weight, etc.

YA RIGHT!!!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:
They got sorted into 2 piles commercial and nato. Then they got tumbled and fl sized and checked to see if they needed trimmed. Had some old ww sr pirmers laying around and a bunch of bl-c2. The 1st outing with that rifle sighting it in (seasoned the bore at the same time) and shot this target doing ladder tests.
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25.5gr to 26.5gr of bl-c2 and bullets in the 52gr to 62gr range have always did 1 moa or better for me in 10/15? different firearms chambered in 223rem/5.56nato. A close-up of the 25.5gr load/group.
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Sure am glad I did all that sorting/weighing/annealing/trimming/match prepping the primer pockets ect.

That groups is easily repeatable and the mixed case 25.5gr load with my home swaged jacketed bullets is my go to blammo ammo for all my 223rem/5.56nato needs.

Good luck with all that sorting, at the end of the day 300yds and in it really doesn't matter. Same goes for those extremely hot loads, you'll find that a cold bbl vs hot bbl will have just as much affect on pressure and the minor differences in case volume.
 
Load them up and shoot them. It’s not going to be a safety issue unless you are trying to load very hot. It isn’t going to be an accuracy issue either unless you are a very serious competitive shooter.
 
Some of the headstamps I only have say, 12, or maybe 18 of, and I have numerous groups of those. I will probably volume sort them to see if they will fit into other headstamp groups of which I have more.

For example, let's say I have 60 of headstamp "X". That's worth working up a load for. Then let's say a volume sampling of headstamps "Y", "Z", and "Q" comes fairly close to the same volume. I could then lump them into the "X" group, and happily load away.

Again, the problem is I just don't know what resonable volume tolerances should be. Plus or minus how many cc's, or grains, of water? In the above hypothetical scenario, how much should batch "Q" differ from "X" to get excluded from the group? Many are saying "It doesn't matter, except as concerns military versus commercial." Maybe that's true, but I think we can do better, and safer than that with just a little extra work, that I don't mind...


Thanks!
Vettepilot
 
Working up a high velocity load. Same headstamp cases. You get to 47 grains of Whizbang 2000 powder, and see a bit of primer flattening, but no cratering and no ejector swipe. Ok, noted. Accuracy fair to good.

47.3 grains, more primer flattening, maybe a hint of cratering on a couple, no ejector marks. Ok, noted; pay attention!! Accuracy very good.

47.6 grains. Quite flat primers with mild cratering, 2 of 5 rounds have a slight ejector swipe. Stop! Pressure! Go back to 47.3 as MAX. Accuracy fair.

(Load data had 48 grains as max.)

Now, if I am getting what most are saying, it won't matter if I load this into a case with less volume??? I'm not buying it...

So, what parameters to use for volume sorting? Anyone have hard numbers??

Vettepilot
 
The direct answer to your question is what your comfort with. I sort by weight in matching headstamp brass. I want my 308 cases total spread inside 1 grain. For a case in the 170 grain range that's a spread of about half a percent. That's what I use. Are you going to volume check 200 cases. Weight sorting doesn't work on mixed head stamp so the more laborious volume sorting is required. There is a direct money for time tradeoff in this endeavor.
 
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