Mixing HP-38 & W231

[capreppy]

I've used up my 1lb container of HP-38 (well most of it). I have an 8lb jug of W231 I am picking up this afternoon. Is it ok to mix? Or should I use up as much of the HP-38 and then fertilze my wife's garden so I don't have to mix. I could save it, but the problem would be different lot numbers when I actually get around to buying more powder (which could be a year from now).

Thoughts?

 

[rcmodel]

It would be O.K. if the HP-38 is of fairly recent vintage.

But back in the old days, it had a slightly different burn rate then WW-231.

Were it me, I would use up as much of the 1 lb can as possible, then dump the little left over in the 8 lb drum and shake it up a little.

You will never no the differance.

rc

 

[capreppy]

It is of VERY recent vintage. Purchased from my local range not even two weeks ago. I'll make as many rounds as I can with what I have left and then mix the remainder with the W231.

 

[sellersm]

I'd always been told they're the same thing.

What rcmodel said is good advice, imho.

 

[BADUNAME37]

While some people say it is OK, and that is what they would do, mixing powders is one thing I would NEVER do!

If there was something that went awry, I want to be able to say "well, I certainly KNOW IT WAS NOT THE POWDER!"

Otherwise, if something goes wrong, how do you even begin to figure out the problem if you have tossed in a variable that could make all the difference in the world?

It is like just when does one throw away meat? It has been in the refrigerator for five days and looks a bit off and is slimy. Some people would eat it no matter what. I've been sick enough times from apparent food poisoning to have a flat-out rule which is: If in doubt, DON'T!

Read my SIGNATURE VVVVVVV

 

[rcmodel]

It is of VERY recent vintage.

Then it very likely came out of the same bulk powder shipment Hodgdon received from St. Marks Powder.

All they do is pour it in different containers to make HP-38 and W-231 to sell.

It's not like you are mixing Alliant Bullseye with W-231 or anything!

rc

 

[LiveLife]

This from Hodgdon's website:

In March 2006, Hodgdon Powder Company and Winchester® Ammunition announced that Winchester® branded reloading powders would be licensed to Hodgdon.

If the HP38 is of recent lot, I would not have any problem mixing with recent lot # W231, but I would do it only for these "known same" powders (there are other same powders under different labels that exist). If there was any concern, I would do what rcmodel recommended or call Hodgdon and ask when your lot # was manufactured and if it was compatible with the lot # of W231.

 

[rcmodel]

The thing is though, if he uses up all he can get out of the HP-38 can before mixing the dregs in an 8 pound drum of W-231 and shaking it?

How much difference could it make?

I betcha Hodgdon couldn't even test the differance if it was a different lot number.

rc

 

[BADUNAME37]

This from Hodgdon's website:


If the HP38 is of recent lot, I would not have any problem mixing with recent lot # W231, but I would do it only for these "known same" powders (there are other same powders under different labels that exist). If there was any concern, I would do what rcmodel recommended or call Hodgdon and ask when your lot # was manufactured and if it was compatible with the lot # of W231.

Dollars to donuts, if you were to call them they would take a firm stand on DO NOT MIX THE POWDERS, as they wouble be liable if they told you to go ahead and mix them and something out of their control took place.

That is why, when it comes to shooting and reloading, my philosophy is WHEN IN DOUBT, DON'T!

 

[RandyP]

To me it is the same situation of having a new 8# container of Win 231 and half full powder measure containing Win 231. Yes I would not hesitate to top off the powder measure with the new stuff. Not only would I do that, I have done that.

 

[Gadzooks Mike]

Dollars to donuts, if you were to call them they would take a firm stand on DO NOT MIX THE POWDERS, as they wouble be liable if they told you to go ahead and mix them and something out of their control took place.

I'll take that bet. I called them several months ago to find out which powders were identical, and they gave me their list. One of the pairs on the list was HP38/W231. It's the SAME POWDER as rcmodel has said.

Now please, don't take this as ME (Mike) telling YOU (Friendly) to mix it. It's your choice. But they are the same powder and I would treat them as such. It would be silly not to.

 

[Walkalong]

I stand with rcmodel on this one. Considering it is recent vintage, and he is going to mix in very little with an 8 lb jug,

I betcha Hodgdon couldn't even test the differance if it was a different lot number.

Yep. No worries. AC

 

[Funshooter45]

Same situation as with modern W-296 and H-110. They are the same powders. Not just close, but the same. You will get the same amount of variation by mixing 2 different lot numbers of W-231 as you will get by mixing H-38 with a can of W-231. And these days, even the lot-to-lot variation is mighty small in pistol powders. But still the powder companies are very careful when it comes to any "official" recommendations. Rifle powders seem to have a bit more variation to them though.

 

[LiveLife]

Dollars to donuts, if you were to call them they would take a firm stand on DO NOT MIX THE POWDERS, as they wouble be liable if they told you to go ahead and mix them and something out of their control took place.

I didn't post to ask Hodgdon if it was OK to mix them, just to verify whether HP38 lot # was compatible to the lot # of W231. If the two lots are recently manufactured, they would be the same powder from different lots, or even the same lot.

"call Hodgdon and ask when your lot # was manufactured and if it was compatible with the lot # of W231."

Many reloaders mix two different lot # containers of the SAME powder to produce one consistent powder mix, but that's up to the individual reloader.

 

[Bush Pilot]

RC Model nailed it, mix and use. However, peeing into the wind is still a no no.

 

[GLShooter]

ll go with the mix and shake on this one. As a test group of one I have used the two interchangeably for the past 25 year and never looked back. My chronograph tells me the velocities are the same at the same charge weight ( PPC loads of 3.1 grains) and if it says the sped is on the money then I am comfortable in MY activities. YMMV.

Greg

 

[capreppy]

Well when all was said and done, there was VERY little left after I finished a batch of 100. Played it safe and fertilized my wife's rose garden. Started with the W231 fresh in a clean Powder Drop.

 

[Sport45]

What I do in this situation is empty the 1# can of HP-38 into the powder measure. Top the measure off from the 8# jug of W231. When I'm through reloading I'll empty the measure into the 1# can and then top it off from the 8# jug. I'll label the can as W231 with the lot number from the 8# jug.

The stock in the 8# jug remains unaltered and is traceable by its lot number if necessary. The 1# can contains any "mix" and I'll use it next time I fill the hopper. I prefer to handle powder in 1# cans when transporting between my powder pantry (upstairs closet) and reloading room (garage).

 

[gamestalker]

I heard a lot of that about powders with nearly identical burn properties. But so far as I'm concerned and the experts, I would never even consider mixing powders or suggest it is OK to do! I hear I lot of advice that contradicts SAMMI established data, such as, using primers not intended for the application listed. Seating bullets deeper than recomended to increase velocity is dangerous. Don't trim your cases. Just these few methods of hand loading can result in catrostrophic disater. Add to the mix an unexperienced hand loader, or one who relies on our help who obviously hasn't read an instruction manual, and people can get hurt.
I use a lot of reloading methods that are critisized by self proclaimed experts such as working up to maximum charges listed for all my cartridges, only using the slowest burning powder for all catridges, seat high powered rifle bullets to the lands, and trim every time I resize. I have loaded like this since I started hand loading in the early 1980s which was when I read about these methods in the manual, and have never had one single mis-hap or mis-fire, or other wise unintended result. And the strange thing is I get 12 or more cycles from my brass before it's done.
I confine my methods to the proffesional's who have developed them, and question anyone who decides to use trial and error, rather than results that have already been established with extensive R&D by those who are qualified.
It's OK to critisize mine or anyone else's methods, but please think about what you feed the new guy so he first understands what has been established as SAMMI tested, and recomended.

 

[Sport45]

I heard a lot of that about powders with nearly identical burn properties. But so far as I'm concerned and the experts, I would never even consider mixing powders or suggest it is OK to do!

If these powders had "nearly identical burn properties" then I'm sure we would all agree with you. But HP-38 and W231 are not "nearly identical", they are the SAME powder. The only difference between the two is the label on the jug they are poured into by the manufacturer. It's no different than mixing the dregs of the last can of HP-38 with the next can of HP-38.

I confine my methods to the proffesional's who have developed them, and question anyone who decides to use trial and error, rather than results that have already been established with extensive R&D by those who are qualified.

I believe almost all of the data found in our reloading manuals was found by trial and error. I guess it's just a matter of who you feel is qualified to use this process.

I don't think SAMMI tests any cartridge loadings whether they are factory loadings or recipes from established manuals. SAMMI only defines the pressure and dimensional standards that compliant cartridges must meet.

 

[bloominonion]

I was under the impression that you weren't supposed to mix any powders in any situation. Not even two powders of identical make. Then again I may just talk to some overly safe people.

 

[gamestalker]

I've never read in any handloading manual or on any container of powder that it is OK to mix powders, not even of the same exact type. Quite the contrary, don't mix powders even if they are of the same type or lot. Everything stated in the hand loading manuals is developed by individuals who have the equiptment and education to be considered scientists, qualified experts in their relevant field. The information they provide for us that becomes approved SAMMI standard, is consistent in the listed data, as is the method for combining the components. You can try to justify trial and error all you like, but it's mearly something you have invented that works for you in your gun, and hasn't caused you a problem while riding that fine line. It's certanly not a good practice to suggest to someone who doesn't know better to adopt a mentality that inspires them to ignor safe hand loading practices, and then to just go with their instincts after dangerous trial and error. A standard is something that is determined to be effective in a wide range of normal applications, safely. Determined is a key word here that is established by expensive equiptment that simulates it's intended application and is determined or proven to be safe. Mixing powders, using primers for unintended application, seating bullets deeper than listed data are all clearly identified in reloading books as don't do's. The average hand loader doesn't pocess the education and certification more importantly to determine that SAMMI specifications do not apply or are without merit.

 

[snuffy]

I've never read in any handloading manual or on any container of powder that it is OK to mix powders, not even of the same exact type. Quite the contrary, don't mix powders even if they are of the same type or lot. Everything stated in the hand loading manuals is developed by individuals who have the equiptment and education to be considered scientists, qualified experts in their relevant field.

The information they provide for us that becomes approved SAMMI standard, is consistent in the listed data, as is the method for combining the components. You can try to justify trial and error all you like, but it's merely something you have invented that works for you in your gun, and hasn't caused you a problem while riding that fine line. It's certainly not a good practice to suggest to someone who doesn't know better to adopt a mentality that inspires them to ignor safe hand loading practices, and then to just go with their instincts after dangerous trial and error.

A standard is something that is determined to be effective in a wide range of normal applications, safely. Determined is a key word here that is established by expensive equipment that simulates it's intended application and is determined or proven to be safe.

Mixing powders, using primers for unintended application, seating bullets deeper than listed data are all clearly identified in reloading books as don't dos. The average hand loader doesn't possess the education and certification more importantly to determine that SAMMI specifications do not apply or are without merit.

Now doesn't that look better, easier to read?

"I've never read in any handloading manual or on any container of powder that it is OK to mix powders, not even of the same exact type."

You never will either. Their lawyers would quit if they ever did.

Some people have common sense, others only do what the eggspurts say.

You'd better never buy surplus powder, there are NO manuals for those powders. You have to experiment by using data from what powders they are close to. For instance, WC-844 is close to H-335 in characteristics, and burn rate. SO you use H-335 data.

Would I mix W-231 and HP-38 powder? Certainly. Would I mix what's left of an old jug of W-231 with a new jug of W-231? Of course. The lot-to-lot variance of the same powder is impossible to measure. IT HAS TO BE! We couldn't be reloading if it weren't.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I see no reason whatsoever not to mix the dregs from a can of the same powder with a new jug of powder. I thought everyone did or how would you use up the "leftovers?" I'll be damned if I will throw away perfectly good reloading powder for no good reason.

I'm so tired of people not believing the Hodgdon and Winchester powders are identical even though Hodgdon has stated this MANY times.

W231 = HP38
W296 = H110
W540 = HS-6
W571 = HS-7
W760 = H414
WAP = Ramshot Silhouette

They are not almost the same powders they are identical powders. The manufacturer sends Hodgdon bulk powder and then Hodgdon fills their 1lb, 4lb and 8lb jugs with the powder. Then they slap the proper label on the jar and either a black cap for HP-38 or blue cap for W231. The only difference is the label and cap. No need to take my word for this or the word of anyone here. Call, write or email Hodgdon /Winchester /IMR and ask them for yourself like many of us already have.

IMO one of the Mods should write this up better than I can and make it a sticky so we don't have to do it over and over once a month.

 

[USSR]

Same powders, mixing is no problem.

Don