Modern BP revolver?

[DakotaSig]

Maybe this is blasphemy, but I'll take a chance on posting it anyway.

I'm interested in getting into BP shooting. I like the idea of not being dependent on cartridges. I also like the idea of experimenting with different loads while at the range. I'm just not impressed with the repro. guns available. I'm not saying old guns are bad, just that I would like to see an updated design too. If I did reenactments or rendezvous' I would want an historic piece, but right now I just want a somewhat practical shooter for hunting, plinking and defense. What is available?

This is what I have in mind:

+ .45 cal. that can be loaded to near magnum level. I envision hunting hogs with hard cast and deer with swaged HP. Can we get 300gr and 1000fps? Maybe use smokeless too?

+ The cylinder should be easily removable (ala remington) for quick reloads and easy cleaning. Note that having the cylinder removable would also allow reloading outside of the frame. This would eliminate the need to mount a loading lever and have a frame cutout to allow access to the cylinder. This would open up some design possibilities and clean up the looks of the gun too.

+ Removable cylinders should not be any more expensive than modern magazines on a per mag. comparison. Of course cylinders only hold six.

+ The cylinder will have primer pockets to use modern primers. This would be a safety and convenience feature. The primer would have to be pressed into the pocket with a tool, but once in it would make a weatherproof seal and also eliminate caps backing off nipples.

+ I want a top strap with a milled slot to mount either an adjustable sight or a scope base.

+ Double action with some kind of firing pin safety. This would allow safe carry with a full load and the hammer down.

+ I prefer stainless steel construction.

+ I think a companion carbine to accept the same cylinders would be cool too.

What do Y'all think?

 

[HogRider]

There would be a simple solution: Take a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt and load the cartridge with Black Powder. The gun is strong enough so that you don't have to worry blowing it up even with heavy hunting loads.

I started loading Black Powder with my Vaquero and have a lot of fun with it.

 

[DakotaSig]

Here's another thought...

Let's suppose that cartridges didn't get invented.

What kind of guns do you think we would have?

What kind would like to see?

 

[TerryBob]

I think that you have described the Ruger Old Army in every detail except for the near magnum load requirement. It is a modern black powder revolver. If you want the near magnum load, go with the Colt Walker. As mentioned on this forum several times, It was the most powerful handgun until the invention of the .357 magnum. It's a beast of a gun weighing in at 5 or 6 pounds.

Take care,

TerryBob

 

[MrMurphy]

The Ruger Old Army is essentially a very modernized Remington 1858 New Army, stronger, better built, etc. www.cabelas.com has them usually.

 

[Dave R]

Well, the Walker Colt was pretty close to the .44mag, IIRC. But it was a big, heavy pistol.

Is it possible we'd wind up with a Walker Titanium if brass cartridges had not been invented?

 

[BigG]

Note that having the cylinder removable would also allow reloading outside of the frame. This would eliminate the need to mount a loading lever and have a frame cutout

Don't know how familiar you are with cap n ball revos but mine cut a perfect circle of lead off the RB as it passed the cylinder mouth. Loading outside the cylinder would require some kind of appliance to give the leverage to seat the oversized balls in the chambers, thus adding another piece of paraphernalia to a paraphernalia-heavy activity already. JMTC

 

[MrAcheson]

Frankly I don't see some of your stuff happening. For instance:

• Having the loading lever on the gun is good. Its much better to have it there than to require more equipment, especially since self-sufficiency is a goal. C&B revolvers since the Colt Paterson have had it there for a reason. If you don't like it you can always drive the pin out and take it off.
• Cheap cylinders aren't practical. Cylinders require precision machining to keep the cylinder timing right for all six chambers. Magazines can be much more cheaply stamped and welded out. The manufacturing processes don't support this kind of pricing.
• There is a reason revolving rifles and carbines didn't catch on. Its chain fire. Its all fun and games until someone loses an arm. A remington revolving carbine repro is available. The repro and original are specifically designed so that your hands remain behind the cylinder gap.

Most of the other stuff has been done at one time or another. You can get a Ruger Old Army with some of your qualifications. They're stainless, SA, load like a Remington New Model, and you can get them with adjustable sights.

 

[461]

I'm in the Ruger old army camp here as well. One thing mentioned that intrigues me is the idea of using primers in place of perc. caps. I have no tool and die background so can't comment on the feasability of this, but it sure would solve one of the big drawbacks to C&B revolvers. Again a tool would be required to decap the cylinder after firing. It is an interesting idea though.

 

[cordex]

461,

What about a decapping pin that can protrude or be retracted from the loading ram? You've already got the assembly there to stick something down the cylinder, it shouldn't be too hard to set it up a little pin that can project from the center of the ram.

 

[461]

I was thinking that would be the way to go on decap, what about insertion. I would imagine the primer would have to be forced a bit just like in a cartridge, the modern primer is much more powerful than a percusion cap as well so you may have the problem of a projectile from each end. If that were the case you'd need a recoil shield and loading gate arrangement t protect the shooter.

This is a lot of effort and expense just to do away with an inexpensive brass case that makes it quicker to reload anyhow. :banghead: An interesting thought puzzle though.

 

[ROAshooter]

modern bp

As others have stated...the Ruger Old Army.....IS..a modern BP.
But I have to add..that some of your requirements....are questionable.
Why the need for modern primers? Percusion caps are reliable.easy to use.easy to replace.and with any sense of care...work each and every time.
As to power...the Ruger...with 777...is approaching .357 perfomance.
I have two Rugers....a SS7.5...with adjustable sights and a blue 5.5 with fixed sights. The 5.5 does have the quick change cylinder option now.
So you can have spare BP cylinders...or the colt 45 cartridge.
I do cast my own bullets....pure lead....with hollow points.....and I have absolute faith in the guns capablities as a personal defense weapon.

 

[DakotaSig]

Thanks for all the comments.

Lots of Ruger fans here! I hadn't considered them before. I'll take a look. I am also looking at the BFR from magnum research. That might be another way to go. It certainly has enough cylinder capacity in the .45-70 model.

Some random responses and a justification:

+ I'm mostly just thinking of this as an interesting experiment to see what we would get if we re-thought BP guns knowing what we know today. Also, I shoot self-loaders now, so brass is a pretty important part of my shooting. I look at the bucket of brass I have in the corner and I wonder if I could shoot at modern performance levels without it? Everyone talks about new caseless ammo.; Maybe we've had it all along? Finally, I just enjoy recycling old technology (early industrial age) for modern use.

+ In my (possibly ignorant) opinion, the percussion cap IS the weak link in BP guns. Caps are not weather resistant, they appear easy to accidently discharge and when they fire they blow copper bits back at the shooter. Would anyone here carry a loaded and capped cylinder on their belt? What if you dropped it while doing a "tactical reload?" (Yes I know, next I'll be talking carbon fiber grips and night sights )

+ Chain fire: I thought that this was blamed on loose or overly-sensitive perc. caps? If we use grease to seal the front of the cylinder, how else could a chain fire happen?

+ I have seen shooters concerned with self-sufficiency using a handheld reloading tool to load their brass. Why not carry a similar tool designed for reloading cylinders? You have to carry a bullet mold and cleaning tools, supplies, etc. anyway.

+ I agree that this would likely end up a heavy gun, but some of the things I've proposed would reduce the weight: No loading lever, frame modified for no loading, the cylinder might be slightly lighter with no nipples and no need to carry spare nipples or wrench.

+ The spare Remington cylinders I've seen listed in Dixie are within $10 of what quality mags cost for some of my pistols. I also think primer pockets would be easier to machine than threaded sockets and the nipples to go in them. I believe that a cylinder would most likely last longer than a mag. and take more reloading than brass too.

Thanks for all the interesting comments!