modified isosceles arm extension / elbow bend angle

[azrocks]

How much do you bend your elbows, and how much of a difference do different angles make regarding accuracy?

I've been watching videos lately of USPSA grandmasters, and realized nearly all of them have significantly less elbow-bend than I do.

Naturally, it's more difficult to hold a handgun further out from one's body, so I'm sure part of my problem is the need to better develop the muscles involved. Then again - if there's no significant advantage, I'd rather just keep them closer where I feel more comfy (and less fatigued).

What works for you, and why?

FYI - If I had to guess, I'd say my elbow bend is probably around 30 degrees. Most of the pros I've been watching appear to be more around 10-15.

 

[yaonttwo]

Elbows should be outward.

 

[azrocks]

Elbows should be outward.

I'll make sure to pass that on to any double-jointed shooters I encounter.

 

[ATLDave]

A few thoughts from not-GM shooter:

1. USPSA stages are brief, and shooting positions often even briefer. It's difficult to imagine a stage that would require a shooter to stand and shoot, with the gun up, for anything approaching even 10 seconds. (Maybe a texas star that the shooter fouls up? Or an extremely complicated and difficult activator sequence where the shooter is making multiple passes on a swinger?) Even if the stage takes 30 or 40 seconds to run, a lot of that time you will have the gun "down" for reloading, running, etc. Arm fatigue isn't really a thing for the game itself.
2. Arm fatigue might be an issue for practice, particularly if you're doing a lot of group-shooting. But I'd rather break my training into smaller/briefer chunks than fundamentally change what I think will work best in a match. Others who are more hard-core about practice might disagree...
3. To the extent you are genuinely limited by arm strength, regular draws in dry fire will help with this. So would getting some little 5lb weights and raising them, with arms straight, from a by-sides position to a mummy-walk position. Doing that with one 5lb weight in each hand would provide multiple times the weight/resistance of any pistol. You don't have to gain much strength to have all the strength you need in this regard. If it's a limiting factor now, you could make it not the limiting factor very, very quickly and easily barring some intractable medical problem.*
4. There are lots of theories and ideas out there about how elbows are to be used in shooting a pistol. You'll get the torquing-inward school of thought yan' referenced above, the "shock absorbers" theory, etc. I'm not sure there's much magic to it. I can tell you that my arms are pretty far out, but not locked at the elbows. Here's how I got there:
A. I want a consistent, fast, automatic index. I can have various degrees of bend in my elbows without seeing a whole lot of difference in terms of recoil.
B. I can't seem to consistently hit the same spot/index with more than a little bend at the elbows.
C. If I go all the way out to an actual locked elbow, then the gun (and probably my head) do bounce around a bit more in recoil.
D. I've put a good deal of kinetic energy into the gun during the first half of the draw. It's moving pretty fast, and it has some weight, and therefore it has some momentum. If I try to run it all the way to the end, or if I try to jerk it to a stop very early, then the gun dips and bounces around - I have to wait for that to finish before I can pick up the sights and start shooting. If I get it maybe 12-16" in front of my chest and then let it "coast" to a stop, it ends up being not-locked, but pretty well extended... and the sights are usually "there" immediately.

Writing this made me look back at some videos of myself shooting in matches, in particular on the draw. Ugh. I clearly let the gun run to 100% extension far too often, and get the bounce/dip described above. Well, on the plus side, that's something to work on that might net some quick improvement...

* I would wager actual cash that the physical-strength limiting factor on your shooting is hand strength. Not because your hands are weak (I have no idea how strong your hands are), but because more hand strength is nearly always beneficial. You don't get to diminishing returns on hand strength until you're basically a bionic orangutan. For most mortals, you can just keep on seeing benefits by getting incrementally stronger hands.

 

[azrocks]

Incredible reply, Dave. Thanks so much. That's a lot to mull over but I'm fairly certain my question was answered as well as it could be, as well as answering many I never thought to ask.

I get the indexing thing - something I hadn't thought of before - and see how it could be beneficial (and how my current amount of arm bend lends itself to potential inconsistency).

I thought it was mostly a matter of biomechanics - and as you suggest above at least part of it very well could be. I noticed that when I extend my arms further than I have been (but not fully locked), out of necessity my elbows turn further inward, changing the relationship of my arm & wrist bones, and causing my hands to naturally want to cup inward from the bottom (if that makes sense).

Whether that's a good or bad thing for me I couldn't say. Guess I've got some experimenting to do. But that's the way I'm seeing many people at the top level shoot, so at a bare minimum it doesn't appear to hinder them.

You might not want to place that bet, however. While I'm sure my hand strength could be improved, its between my shoulder-blades and the shoulders themselves that give me issues - and yes - that is in the context of practice where I have my arms up and relatively stationary for longer periods of time than you'd see when moving.

 

[murf]

squeeze the gun hard with both hands and elbows at your 30 degree bend. now push (not shove, or jam) your hands out to just before your elbows start to rotate inward. this should be the point where the push out balances the elbow bending caused by that strong grip (flexor muscles gripping the pistol grip also bend the elbow). the stronger the grip the more the push.

an added benefit of the push is to put more weight forward onto your toes, which is where it should be all the time anyway.

luck,

murf

 

[Jonesy814]

The shooting position has to be comfortable to work. I read that the Weaver stance came about due to Jack Weaver having a bum elbow due to a past injury. He shot that way because he had to

 

[Zerodefect]

As straight as possible. But not over extended and painfull. Let the recoil travel all the way to your body, lean into it and soak it up.

 

[v35]

I can't help but wonder what those safety glasses are doing for that guy when he has to peer over the top of them. Are they protecting his eyes, or his cheekbones?

And scrunching his neck down... why?

That looks like a much better stance.

 

[RecoilRob]

I can't help but wonder what those safety glasses are doing for that guy when he has to peer over the top of them. Are they protecting his eyes, or his cheekbones?

And scrunching his neck down... why?

If you get sort of a 'cheek weld' on your shoulder looking straight down your arm...it's fast and easy to find the sights. Both eyes open looking down your arm you'll automatically have the right set of sights in view...though for those with cross dominant eyes this won't work. With a gun that recoils decently it's also advantageous to have the pistol straight in line with your forearm. This helps with fast point shooting as your lateral alignment is as simple as pointing your arm at the target so you really only have to find the front sight to correct the vertical. A true Isosceles stance has the pistol at angles with both arms and is pretty much totally dependent on you aligning the sights...so not as effective in point shooting IMHO. Shooting a 'race gun' is a bit different than an actual carry piece and 'race techniques' sometimes don't work as well as others more suited to the task.

 

[murf]

"sit up straight!" "elbows off the table!" "don't hunch your shoulders!" i still remember hearing that at the dinner table when i was a kid.

bend and pivot from the waist, keep your back straight. you can't pivot your body easily if your back is curved.

murf

 

[doubleh]

Bent elbows. I don't have a choice as arthritis has made it impossible to straighten my arms. Seems to work about as good as as back in the days before arthur showed up. I'm still not a great stand up pistol shooter.

 

[azrocks]

"sit up straight!" "elbows off the table!" "don't hunch your shoulders!" i still remember hearing that at the dinner table when i was a kid.

bend and pivot from the waist, keep your back straight. you can't pivot your body easily if your back is curved.

murf

I like that

BTW I've been practicing getting a bit more extension in my arms and it's starting to feel more natural. I think it was more a matter of becoming comfortable with a new way of doing things than anything else. Still not elbows locked and I never will be - just less of an angle. Have yet to shoot this way but I think from the way it feels and the muscle/alignment involved it may offer better recoil control. No doubt it will enhance my accuracy from the perspective of vision / focus, so long as the increased leverage from longer arm extension doesn't counteract this. I'm guessing that in a month or two it will feel as 'right' as what I do now. And if it doesn't help - I can always go back.

Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[bassjam]

The shooting position has to be comfortable to work. I read that the Weaver stance came about due to Jack Weaver having a bum elbow due to a past injury. He shot that way because he had to

Makes sense. I started with isosceles but after a bicycle accident 8 years ago I can't comfortably straighten my left arm all the way anymore. I don't really care for the Weaver stance, so I do something in-between. I used to think I was the only one!

 

[C-grunt]

I shoot similar to the first picture. Im fairly tall so I have to tuck my head a bit to get in line with my arms extended straight out from my shoulders. Main difference is my head is turned and slightly "tucked" into my right shoulder as I am cross eyed dominant and shoot right hand/left eye. My left arm is slightly higher and more outstretched than my right because I shoot thumbs forward along the slide/frame.

 

[tipoc]

The shooting position has to be comfortable to work. I read that the Weaver stance came about due to Jack Weaver having a bum elbow due to a past injury. He shot that way because he had to

I hadn't heard that before. In the interviews I've seen with him and from what I've read from him, that was never mentioned that I recall.

Weaver explained that he developed the hold he used to shoot more accurately at speed and win matches. Specifically the Leatherslap competitions that Jeff Cooper organized out of Big Bear, Ca. The majority of competitors drew fast and shot one handed, many from the hip. Weaver decided to raise the gun up with two hands to where he could see the sights and use those to aim. He began to win. Weaver did not consider what he did a "stance" per se. No one had "stances" then.

Weaver took sort of a bladed boxing stance, raised the gun in both hands, dipped his head a bit, used the sights and shot. No one else took to it as shooting speed matches two handed was wrong, till Weaver racked up wins with both speed and accuracy. Then Cooper began to advocate it and use and promote it. Cooper named it a "Weaver stance" and began to add elements to it to systematize it. Cooper added the "push/pull tension" aspect.

Easier to have Weaver explain it...



tipoc

 

[Varminterror]

Straight and nearly, if not fully locked elbows elicit a faster return on sight picture. It puts the recoil on the wrists, almost entirely, but we're talking semi-auto pistols; recoil isn't an issue. By isolating the recoil movement to the wrist, as much as possible, the pistol rolls more, but moves less overall. Hold your arms out straight with no pistol, pointing at a target with both index fingers. Keep your eyes on the target, and bend your wrist up slightly, and watch how far your fingertips move above target. Now, point at the target again, but bend your elbows this time. Your elbows are attached to longer bones and larger muscles, deflection in the elbows (flexion of the arms) is a larger overall movement at your hand than that of radial deviation of the wrist.

So, if you want to absorb heavy recoil, keep your elbows bent. If you want to shoot fast, straighten your arms out.

Straight elbows also eliminate a variance point for your physiology. The physical dimension of your outstretched arms will vary very little from one shot to the next, as compared to the variability of two partially flexed arms. So when you are action shooting and aiming with your breastbone, straight arms will hit consistently relative to wherever your breastbone is pointing, whereas flexed arms may not.

Also - your sight picture drift error will shrink as your sights move farther from your eye. The relative subtension of the sights become more similar, so you'll have less margin for drift, and less POI drift accordingly. So again - straighten those arms.

 

[RecoilRob]

We used to do a drill where you aimed at a target then closed your eyes, count to 30...then fire the shot with eyes still closed. You can do this dry-firing and I bet most people will find themselves pointing to somewhere other than where they were when they open their eyes again until you do this multiple times adjusting your stance. This was good to show if your position is natural or forced. If forced...you'd drift off target so playing with this helped develop what worked well enough that you tended to stay on target without effort which can do nothing but improve how you shoot. Straighter arms offer less of a variable than flexed, and unless recoil mitigation is needed...it's one less thing to mess you up.

 

[tipoc]

Flexibility can be a good thing. A stance, or position, that is useful in a "combat shooting" course may not be as useful while in a small hallway, or while kneeling or crawling. The position one shoots from while crouching behind cover, or moving will vary. Different shooting sports may require a person to develop different skills, a particularly good thing. Learn to adapt.

 

[Shaq]

I've tried both ways - bent elbows & locked elbows. I haven't noted any difference in accuracy, but I notice a difference in recoil when shooting my S&W 500. Seems more comfortable with slightly bent elbows.

 

[Varminterror]

I've tried both ways - bent elbows & locked elbows. I haven't noted any difference in accuracy, but I notice a difference in recoil when shooting my S&W 500. Seems more comfortable with slightly bent elbows.

if you want to absorb heavy recoil, keep your elbows bent. If you want to shoot fast, straighten your arms out.

@azrocks is asking about action pistol shooting in this thread, as well as several other from him of late. Not many folks will use a 500 S&W X-Frame for USPSA/IDPA/IPSC/NRA Action, etc, so AZRocks won't need to worry as much about recoil absorption as you do with your X-frame.

 

[340PD]

Great question that I have had students ask me many times. My response is to learn to shoot as accurately as possible from every position you can imagine using either hand in all light conditions.
Hint: a Lasergrip make that a lot easier.

 

[Varminterror]

To be honest, from one instructor to another - when you actually start learning to deliver high rate aimed fire from "unorthodox" positions, AND even more to the point, when you watch top level competitors firing from unorthodox positions, you'll realize the upper body technique doesn't really change much. When firing two handed, it's in a shooter's best interest to adopt as much of the same position as possible.

In all of these below - note the position of the pistol and arms relative to the shoulders and head. As much as possible for each given position, the shoulders, head, arms, and pistol remain in the same relative positions, despite whatever position changes might happen for the rest of the body.

Static Standing

Around barricades/Cover

Prone

Moving

On your back

Seated and around barricade

Laying on side

Just don't pull one of these...

 

[tipoc]

I've tried both ways - bent elbows & locked elbows. I haven't noted any difference in accuracy, but I notice a difference in recoil when shooting my S&W 500. Seems more comfortable with slightly bent elbows.

That 500 S&W, like the 44 Mag and others require different technique. Rather than looking to dominate recoil, which shooters can do with less powerful rounds, with these you have to let the recoil have it's way to some extent. A different discussion though. As is handgun hunting, IMSA, self defense shooting, etc.

Competitive speed shooting, the run and gun type, is a different thing. A different arena. You get a good sample in the photos above.

Look at Jerry Miculek for a moment with a handgun you note that his arms are bent some (you see similar in some of the pics above).

https://www.youtube.com/user/MiculekDotCom

If the op wants to enter into competitive shooting than going to matches and observing will help. Working with others will help as well.

 

[Varminterror]

Look at Jerry Miculek for a moment with a handgun you note that his arms are bent some (you see similar in some of the pics above).

I've wondered, in this type of thread - how well can ol' Jerry straighten his arms anymore anyway? "Locked straight" for 62yrs old is a different angle than such for a 26yr old. In photos of myself shooting over the years, I can tell my right arm (rode bulls for 20yrs) started getting more and more bent, despite feeling as though it's "locked straight". I'm also a more muscular guy, so "straight" is kinda relative, even for my left arm... A colleague I shoot with occasionally (work together, but live 600 miles apart), is a lot slighter build than I am, when he straightens his arms into an isosceles position, his elbows slightly cave inward, hyperextending. My arms won't even go fully straight. But FUNCTIONALLY or biomechanically, both of our arms are "straight," despite there being somewhere around what I'd guess is 15degrees difference between us.