Moonclip vs Speedloader

[Werewolf]

1st off I've got to ask (because I don't know) what the heck a moonclip is. I know it's some type of fast reload device for a revolver but not exactly what. Does it require any type of modification to the revolver to use?

What is the difference between a moonclip and a speedloader?

I've seen speedloaders for a S&W 686 (I've got one - a 686 that is) and considered getting one or two speedloaders but not until I know the differences between a speedloader and a moonclip. Is one better than the other and if so why?

I watched a guy at an IPSC match use a speedloader to reload his revolver so fast you could only tell he was reloading because you saw him do it. He said he was using speedloaders and not moonclips. I'll never be that fast but still the idea of being able to reload a revolver all at once instead of one at a time like I do with my autos is intriguing.

Comments...

 

[P95Carry]

Haven't really got all the pics on hand I could find useful. Below is my M625 with two half moon clips ... I usually use full moons which means of course all 6 x .45acp rounds held in the one device.

The principle is much same really - revos for moonclips are designed as such or modified - so that there is space at cylinder rear to allow this use. It is a system for using rimless ammo like 9mm or .45acp. Reloads can be very fast, tho - to be honest I doubt I can go quicker with those than say, my Comp1 Safariland with .357/38 rounds.

A vital thing IMO is how well held the rounds are - in either case. The presentation of rounds to chambers wants to be such that alignment is good and the rounds all drop in together - and round nose bullets help a lot usually.

I have some plastic moonclips but these do not hold rounds so tight ... the metal clips work best for speed.

Sorry no other pics ... maybe I'll take some comparitive ones at some stage - might be useful.

 

[SDC]

Most moonclips are stamped steel "star"-shaped pieces that hold 3 (like P95s), 5, 6, 7 or 8 rounds, spaced so that they align with the chambers in a revolver's cylinder, so you'd drop the whole package, rounds, clip and all, into the cylinder; a "speedloader", OTOH, holds the same number of rounds, but when you twist a knob or push a button, those rounds fall out of the speedloader and into the chambers, and you're then free to drop the speedloader. You can get very fast with either system, but I tend to believe that moonclips are slightly faster, since you don't have any additional movement involved. Jerry Miculek (AKA "the world's fastest revolver shooter") uses a 625 with moonclips, and he is positively AMAZING with it; he practically throws a full moonclip at the cylinder, and he's reloaded and back on target before the empty moonclip can bounce off the ground.

Edit to add: I've also seen cylinder conversions that allow you to use EITHER system; Steve Crawford of Ranch Products (a big moonclip guy) machines cylinders that have a recessed center, so the rounds will work loose (headspaced on the rim) or in a moonclip (headspaced on the clip). HTH.

 

[P95Carry]

OK - no time like present! Quick pic for you - sorry shadows harsh but my normal lighting set-up was not ready so - improvisation!

Center stage - full moon clip ... empty and loaded, with .45acp. The rounds snap into these and hold quite secure. Getting the empties out is less easy and necessitates a tool be made - simple and effective.

To left is Safariland Comp1 .. my carry speedloader. Once rounds are in chambers a whack on center button dumps rounds in real quick. On right is H&K .. where a twist is needed on knob to release rounds once in chambers. I prefer Comp1 myself, for overall speed. Hope this helps.

 

[Brian Williams]

Here is what my 940 looks like with a moonclip in the cylinder. With moonclips I can shoot and reload 2 times which is 15 shots, about as fast as some folks at the range shoot 1 mag.

 

[Cortland]

The cream of the crop of speedloaders is the Safariland Comp III.

They are spring-actuated. As you insert the rounds into the cylinder, the cylinder star pushes a button on the underside of the speedloader which actuates a spring and propels the rounds the rest of the way into the chamber. No knobs to spin or rounds to shake free -- it's very effective (and fast).

Although probably every so slightly slower than moonclips in a properly chamfered and polished cylinder.

 

[TonyB]

Here's something I
ve wondered about...
I carry a speedloader in my front pocket.....if I carried a moonclip ,would it get bent possibly??How tough are these little thingies??I would love to have my SP101made to take moonclips, but have wondered about the strength of them..

 

[Werewolf]

Thanks for the info guys. Very, very helpful.

FWIW it appears that speedloaders would be more my style than moonclips. I compete in IPSC occassionally and the few seconds of time apparently saved by moonclips wouldn't matter at all seeing as how I'm slow at everything else anyway.

I like the looks of that Comp III. However, based on the description it seems that it might be possible to dump all the rounds on the ground if you handle it wrong when pulling it from it's holder or maybe not lining it up right with the cylinder. Is that just my imagination or can that happen?

What brand of speedloaders would you guys recommend for a S&W 686 with 7 round cylinder and a Taurus Raging Bull in .44 Mag?

 

[SDC]

With the Comp I, II, or III, the "release" button is actually INSIDE the "cage" formed by the cartridges the speedloader is holding, so it's doubtful it could release accidentally. The one reason I think the moonclips are actually faster is that once in a while, one or two of the rounds being released by a speedloader don't fall fully into their chambers, or are dragged out slightly while you're trying to get the speedloader off so you can close the cylinder; with a moonclip, it's either in or it's out, not some in, some out, etc.

 

[Brian Williams]

I routinely carry 0, 1, or 2 moonclips in my front pocket and I have not bent one yet.

 

[Okiecruffler]

It's my dream to get my Taurus 650 cut out for moonclips, but I can't seem to find anyone doing it.

 

[SnWnMe]

With moonclips you KNOW that the empty shell in the 5 O clock position fell free when you pressed that ejector rod and wasn't caught between the star and the cylinder face.

 

[SDC]

Okiecruffler, Steve Crawford of the Ranch Products mentioned above (http://www.ranchproducts.com/) can machine your cylinder for you, as well as supply the proper clips. HTH.

 

[Okiecruffler]

Thanks, I've never tried him. Just emailed him to see what he can do. Now if you could help with my other dream. It involves Angelina Jolie, a jar of marshmellow creme and..........never mind.

 

[surfinUSA]

Moon clips are fine for games not for self defense guns. They do bend and when they bend the gun doesn't work. Sure they were used in WWI with 45 ACP S&W and Colt revolvers, but only as a stop gap because there weren't a sufficient number of 1911s to equip the troops.

Speed loaders are great. Keep your head about you and they are more than fast enough. Panic and moon clips won't be any faster.

I think for the 7 shot S&W only HKS makes them (but they work fine).

 

[SnWnMe]

163,000 guns from S&W alone is a stop gap measure?

Panic and speedloaders are a more fumble prone combi, and it's hard to pick up spilled cartridges.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

I have to agree with SnWnMe. Hold the speedloader too high, etc. and it's 5, 6, 7 or 8 round pickup. Worst case drop the loaded moonclip and you pick them all up at once. Easy to fumble speedloaders.

All current moonclip conversions allow individual round loading, use of speedloaders and moonclips with no problems.

In competition the speedloader users fall way behind the moonclip users.

In competition a holder is used that has a center post. I would expect that the same can be had for SD carry to prevent the actually not so common bending. By the way, I have taken a moonclip that was stepped on durning a match and easily flattened it out with my needlenose pliers for reuse. For more serious bends a repair tool is available, but at $3.00 per moonclip, what the heck.

Safariland comp III is the best speedloader I have used, but does not come in 7- and 8-shot. I am using them right now for my M66 until I can afford moonclip conversion (about $100 plus $30 for a set of clips).

The only speedloaders for the 7-shot are HKS and SL Variant brands. I find the HKS (about $7 each) require an awkward twist for release and sometimes refuse to give up the rounds. I gave them up early on and decided to have my 686+ machined for moonclips.

I have not used the SL Variants as they are $30 or so each (ouch!!!).

All my revovlers have or will have moonclip capability.

 

[surfinUSA]

Like I said the moon clip revolver only existed in WWI because there weren't sufficient 1911s to go around. If it wasn't a stop gap measure these revolvers would have used 45 colt not 45 acp.

Moon clips are better than nothing and are fine for games. But other than that they are just a gunsmith's way of making money buy convincing people they are somehow better than speed loaders.

In reality when they bend they lock up the gun and you die. That simple. Semi auto cartridges belong in semi autos. If you still carry a revolver for personal protection (not a damn thing wrong with that) use speed loaders or speed strips leave the moon clips for the games.

Competition is just a game. Most of the people that I know that have won gun fights would probably do rather poorly on most of the competitions you are thinking of.

 

[carebear]

45 Long Colt wasn't an issue round. Armies tend to try for ammo uniformity so they would have used .45 ACP in any event.

Yes the revo's were ordered due to a lack of 1911's, but so what? They served just fine, there's NO body of literature that supports they and the moonclips being less reliable than the 1911's in combat.

I've never seen a moonclip get so damaged in normal carry and usage (not 'gaming', which is a high horse some "I'm so real world tactical cool" guys need to get off of BTW) that it would go into the weapon and then lock it up. They get that tweaked (which happens rarely based on my, say, 15 years of shooting) and the rounds pop out (identifying that clip as a "don't use") or they won't align with the cylinder.

If it was a problem there'd be documented cases in literature about it. Since there isn't, I'm gonna call it yet another unsupportable opinion.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

Moonclips are more than "better than nothing in a game"--they are consistently the winners. Speedloaders are at a disadvantage and users are rare in serious revolver matches for this reason.

I disagree about the problem with bent moonclips. It just doesn't happen that much. Competition conditions provide much more exposure to adverse conditions for clips than carry--constantly dropped going through stages (commonly gravel), being kicked, constant possibility of being stepped on by shooter, official and fellow cometitors doing cleanup, etc.

I use moonclips for .38 Special and .357 magnums as do a large part of the revolver competitors. After something in the order of 8,000 rounds or so I have had one bent clip despite these conditions. I would not be concerned about a clip sitting around in my pocket, less so if a central insert is used for carry.

If the revolver is purchased moonclip ready (many S&W PC products are) there is no cost. If done after the fact, maybe $100. The price of one Safariland or HKS buys two or more moonclips. The price of one SL Variant buys about 10. All my HKS are now non-functional after less than 1000 rounds maximum, I have not used the Safariland for more than that many so can't comment on their durability. I have yet to toss a moonclip.

To be quite honest, the reason the HKS are defunct may be due to my trying to get them to work correctly.

 

[surfinUSA]

The predominant 38/357 speedloaders I have are HKS. I still have one pair that work fine which I was issued 23 years ago. They are so simple I can't imagine what would go wrong with them.

As far as moon clips go, My opinion is not unsupported. Do a search on this board or some of the others and you'll read about bent clips that have locked up a gun or caused the cylinder to fail to close with the same effect. It doesn't have to happen much, it only has to happen once.

 

[carebear]

surfin,

Still have to disagree. Did the search and the proportion of "bad moon clip" comments is no greater than the "bad mag" ones in those kind of threads. Similarly, it seems to have a lot to do with the brand and age. At those percentage rates it will either happen or it won't, similar to any other "it only takes once" failure (including speedloaders or grit under a cylinder star).

In any case, when I mention 'documentation' I mean military documentation of reported failures/problems in WWI, since that has been the only large scale "combat" (your gold star test IIRC) use of moonclips extant. If it had been a problem in the trenches, there would have been a report done.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

As far as reliability goes, just ask around the competition circles--Jerry Miculek, Vic Pickett, Rudy Waldinger, Jason Petitt. Thousands of rounds, time in the dust, bad treatment in rainy matches (games are not done in armchairs), etc. No speedloaders in this group. All winners.

My HKS were a problem from day one--or maybe my incompetence with them--as they were slow to release rounds or often enough pulled the rounds back out with them.

Not paper statistics or armchair tales: just hard stats from people with experience.

Can't see moonclips being in danger in a nice cushy pocket or holder. They do get damaged in "games" as there is some serious action, but they are good enough that I keep my SD Federal Hydra-shoks in them.

Consider competing in any International Confederation of Revolver Enthusiasts (ICORE) match or the International Revolver Championship (IRC) with speedloaders. Lots of luck.

 

[Round Gun Shooter]

I have used speed loaders and moonclips for a short time I started with the Safariland rubber speed loaders when they came out in the mid 1970's. Better than the dump pouch I guess.

Then I went to the HKS slow loaders. Those things weren't much better. I then tried Dade for PPC. They were a great invention but not good for carry.

Safariland then developed the Comp 1. Much better design and they held onto rounds when dropped.

The Comp II was an improvement for duty and ccw use with the addition of a larger center button.

For games, the Comp 3 and the SL Variant are about the best I have found in the speed loader department.

As far as moon clips, I have carried a 610 with moon clips and currently carry a 325PD. I also compete with the 610 or a 625. In five years with moon clip guns, I have only seen one bent clip. That was after I stepped on it.

Moon clips, speed loaders, and even speed strips require maintenance just like anything else. If a moon clip is bent, you should see it when you gear up.

As far as carrying loose moonclips in pockets, I say no to that and to carrying loose speed loaders in pockets. I also don't carry a 1911 mag loose in my pockets. Too much crap in my pockets that can gum up the works.

Sorry for jumping off the lurk list,

 

[Okiecruffler]

Just got an email back from Steve Crawford. Same story as everyone else, only does S&W revolvers. Sure wish I could find someone who wanted to take my money.