More of Granpa's Guns

[TangSafetyM77]

Thanks to everyone here for their help on the identification and valuation of my Great-grandfather’s Colt Lightning. I visited my Grandfather in Texas this past week and he asked me, “Do you know how to field strip a 1911?†This conversation resulted in his showing me a couple other family heirlooms. He did not give them up yet, but I cleaned and lubed them, and told him I would see what I could find out:

First was his issue sidearm in WWII: Remington Rand 1911. I do not have any pictures. Right side is marked: UNITED STATES MILITARY PROPERTY, NO. 10064XX M1911A1 U.S. ARMY. It shows what appear to be crossed cannons in a circle just behind the right grip panel. The left side reads: Remington Rand Inc. Syracuse, NY USA. “FJA†below slide release, P marked by magazine release, another P marked on the top of the slide in front of the rear sight. The pistol has a parkerized finish with a few scratches here and there, but zero rust. It has the reddish colored bakelite grip panels and a lanyard loop. It does not have the original magazine, but I had an extra I gave him.

The second was left to him by my maternal great grand-father. It is a Smith and Wesson 5-shot, top-break revolver. It has a deep blue-black finish that looks almost new with the exception of some rubbing near the muzzle and a few barely visible rust spots near the grip. It has a 3.5†barrel and black plastic grips. It has a hammer-mounted firing pin and a case hardened hammer. The right side shows the S&W trademark, and all visible numbers match 4892X. The left side reads 38 S&W CTG. Along the top of the barrel it reads,†Smith and Wesson, Springfield, Mass, USA, PT’D Aug 4 96 Dec 22 96 Oct 8 01 Feb 8 06 Sept 14 08.

Both guns are in perfect working order, he had the revolver loaded with 3 38 S&W cartridges for his defense piece, they looked like a short 38 special. Is this gun safe for him to fire with modern ammunition? What are the approximate values and dates of manufacture for these 2 guns? Any other info about their history would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[BigG]

Sounds like a Springfield Armory 1911 frame (WWI era) with a Rem Rand slide?

 

[Kruzr]

Looks like the 1911 was made in 1943.

http://www.gun.in.th/gun1911sn.htm

 

[Old Fuff]

Question: Is the S&W a single-action or double-action? If it was a double-action the serial number would indicate it was made between 1880 to 1884, but you list the last patent date as "08" or 1908. "The" serial number is the one on the bottom of the butt.


The Government Model serial number falls into a range assigned to Remington-Rand and was made in 1943. "FJA" was Col. Frank J. Atwood who was in charge of inspection on all Remington-Rand and Ithaca made 1911-A1 .45 pistols. You have the real thing, not a "parts gun."

 

[TangSafetyM77]

Single/Double

Fuff,

I could have sworn it was a double-action, but I am not really sure. It has the automatic ejector that pops up the the cases as you first break open the top, then they drop back down as you get the gun fully opened.
From the overall outstanding cosmetic condition, I don't think there is any way it could be that old. Was Remington Rand just the slide manufacturer on a Springfield frame as was suggested by BigG?
Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.

Tang

 

[Jim Watson]

The Perfected Model S&W topbreak .38 was made from 1909 to 1920 and so could have an '08 patent; and it had its own range of serial numbers, 1 to 59,400 and so could be at 48,920. Does it have a side latch like a modern swing-out Smith as well as the top latch? Most Perfecteds did, but not all.

I agree that the .45s serial number is in the first block of numbers used by Remington Rand in 1943. Sounds like the gun is straight.

 

[TangSafetyM77]

Mr. Watson,
It does in fact have both the top latch as well as the side latch. Would the serial number mean it was made in 1918-1920, and therefore safe smokeless ammo? Anywhere I can find more info on this one? What about value?
When you say the gun is "straight", does that mean both the frame and slide were made by Remington Rand? He mentioned he had a new barrel fitted on the pistol just before he was discharged from the military, and it shows. The barrel Looks unfired, but not original to the gun.

You guys on this site are a great wealth of info.

 

[Old Fuff]

To help you with the S&W .38 I'd need more specific information. I think you're probably right about the "double-action" part, but until the correct serial number was known I strongly advise it not be shot with modern ammunition. Earlier production was intended for black powder. The revolver was made as late as 1911 and still sold for a short time thereafter.

Your Grandpa's .45 was made entirely by Remington Rand. Springfield Arsenal guns had much lower serial numbers and were Model 1911's not 1911-A1's. Col. Atwood never inspected the Springfield guns. In addition, Springfield Arsenal didn't make any .45's during the World War Two period.

They could have possibly rebuilt some earlier guns and used Remington-Rand slides. But in that case they would have retained the original serial number and inspectors marks (plus some new ones) and still had the 1911 configuration. Grandpa's gun is serial numbered in a range of numbers specifically assigned to Remington-Rand. The Army did this to insure they wouldn't have two frames (or guns) with the same serial number coming from different manufactures. Unmodified Remington's are worth some bucks on the collector's market where mixed-part rebuilds are not.

 

[TangSafetyM77]

Serial No

Fuff,
Does your comment about the serial no. mean that the 4892X is not a valid number? Is there a site where I can verify the date of manufacture and safety with smokeless loads. What kind of value are you thinking for this revolver?

What are you think in terms of value on the .45?

Thank you sir.

 

[Old Fuff]

Ah ….. You didn’t mention the thumb latch in the first place. Little details can mean a lot. Yes, you have the last in a long line of S&W top-break revolvers. It was called the “Perfected Model†and the purpose of the thumb latch was to insure a bad guy couldn’t reach over the top of the gun, lift the barrel latch, and break the barrel down ejecting all the cartridges. It was a good try, but the days of top-break revolvers was about over. Production of the hammerless “New Departure†model did continue until 1940 though.

The Perfected Model was made from 1909 through 1920. 59,400 were made so your Grandpa’s gun is fairly late, and yes – you can use modern .38 S&W ammunition in it. However avoid hot handloads or bullets over 150 grains. It does have some collector’s value – perhaps as much as $300.00- $400.00 depending on condition.

 

[Old Fuff]

I't difficult to put as value on a gun that can't be examined. But if the gun is as it left the factory the value is probably around $800.00 and rapidly going up. "Pure" guns are hard to find because those that remained in government's hands were rebuilt - sometimes several times. Others were worn out and destroyed or sent overseas. Because of anti-gun laws they (or at least they're frames) can't be brought back.

I'd say both of your Grandpa's guns are real winners. Take good care of them.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Just FYI, that Smith & Wesson is chambered for .38 S&W, NOT .38 Special. It's a different round and it is not safe to shoot .38 Specials in it.