More on single action speed shooting

[CraigC]

Maybe this will put to bed some of what we have heard recently about single action shooters relying on mousefart CAS loads for their speed. Maybe it won't. With the exception of Bryce Towsley at the end, I don't think any of these guys have put a lot of deliberate effort into shooting fast with a single action. He could've done it faster but he missed the hammer on one shot.

http://www.americanhunter.org/videos/454-casull-challenge#.U8aFKRzZ2uc.facebook

 

[Sam1911]

Hmmm... completely aside from the discussion at hand, this is an interesting example of one of the reasons we don't allow cross-draw holsters in competition and any open range practice sessions. Note at 2:33, Mr. Towsley sweeps his support hand as he draws. Points directly into his offside (right) palm. Now, I doubt a .454 would hurt much, and it's a SA, so the 4 rules don't all apply, but ... (oh, wait).

...

Anyway, why would someone do a speed test drill but NOT start holstered? Seems odd, especially when the initial gun manipulation (cocking) is such an important step in getting the gun into action. Starting from the low ready for a scenario like that is a bit like starting a drag race with the cars already going 45 mph.

...

Why don't they show the targets/hits? Some of those guys were breaking shots that appeared to be a bit early in the recoil cycle. Fast is good but you've got to really hit it.

...

Having said that, it is great to see these hunting guys out there actually testing themselves with the guns they (and tons of other owners) claim to carry for bear defense. Wish they wouldn't all act like it's some parlor trick or "stupid gun games" gag, and would treat it like life-and-death preparedness that it only makes SENSE that every serious user would be spending time exercising on.

 

[CraigC]

Hmmm... completely aside from the discussion at hand, this is an interesting example of one of the reasons we don't allow cross-draw holsters in competition and any open range practice sessions. Note at 2:33, Mr. Towsley sweeps his support hand as he draws. Points directly into his offside (right) palm. Now, I doubt a .454 would hurt much, and it's a SA, so the 4 rules don't all apply, but ... (oh, wait).

Firstly, this ain't about competitive shooting, shooting at an indoor range or defending yourself in a crowded shopping mall. So unless you're hunting with a friend or a guide, there is little to be "swept" in the field. We'll have to forgive Towsley for sweeping his own hand while retrieving his pistol from the holster (not really a "draw"). A holster, I might add, that apparently requires an extra hand to hold it in place while the sixgun is withdrawn. A sixgun, I might add, that is completely inert until the hammer is cocked. If we are going to focus on this nitpicking issue, then feel free to go ahead and close the thread now.

Anyway, why would someone do a speed test drill but NOT start holstered? Seems odd, especially when the initial gun manipulation (cocking) is such an important step in getting the gun into action. Starting from the low ready for a scenario like that is a bit like starting a drag race with the cars already going 45 mph.

I don't know why they started at the low ready position, as David E did in his last exercise (with an uncocked hammer). Probably because these guys don't carry their heavy sixguns in concealed carry holsters but rather use chest rigs designed for hunting.

Why don't they show the targets/hits? Some of those guys were breaking shots that appeared to be a bit early in the recoil cycle. Fast is good but you've got to really hit it.

Towsley's shooting is what I would focus on.

Having said that, it is great to see these hunting guys out there actually testing themselves with the guns they (and tons of other owners) claim to carry for bear defense. Wish they wouldn't all act like it's some parlor trick or "stupid gun games" gag, and would treat it like life-and-death preparedness that it only makes SENSE that every serious user would be spending time exercising on.

Seems to me that it was more a challenge among friends and colleagues.

 

[Sam1911]

We'll have to forgive Towsley for sweeping his own hand while retrieving his pistol from the holster (not really a "draw")

We will?
So he wasn't drawing under stress, or even practicing drawing under stress. Just retrieving his pistol from the holster. And he still swept himself? Just awesome.

While it's his hand to risk, it points out a bit of what I was getting at above. The lack of seriousness in practicing or even demonstrating what many say/think/believe is a life-and-death skill they'll rely on when a 1,000-lb omnivore is super mad at them. This should be at least as rigorous a pursuit as street defense. We don't forgive bad gunhandling from anyone, ever.

(Said having sent multiple people home from the range this year for EXACTLY that lapse.)

A holster, I might add, that apparently requires an extra hand to hold it in place while the sixgun is withdrawn. A sixgun, I might add, that is completely inert until the hammer is cocked. If we are going to focus on this nitpicking issue, then feel free to go ahead and close the thread now.

Nitpicking details? A sixgun is inert so sweeping yourself is something you can overlook? Closing the thread may be the most merciful I'm apt to be with an attitude like that!

I don't know why they started at the low ready position, ... Probably because these guys don't carry their heavy sixguns in concealed carry holsters but rather use chest rigs designed for hunting.

Kind of begs the defensive use question, eh?

Why don't they show the targets/hits? Some of those guys were breaking shots that appeared to be a bit early in the recoil cycle. Fast is good but you've got to really hit it.

Towsley's shooting is what I would focus on.

Ok. But the other guys took up more time, and the editor of the hunting rag there gave the distinct impression that this was some amazing stunt that they all just HAD to go try -- instead of a crucial skill for anyone who's not simply deluding him/herself when they step into the field with a "defensive" hand cannon.

I've run Bill Drills and such with full-power magnum loads from time to time (though I don't claim to carry a big wheelgun for bear defense very often). It isn't a stunt, or an unbelievable accomplishment, or a casual matter to treat unprofessionally.

Having said that, it is great to see these hunting guys out there actually testing themselves with the guns they (and tons of other owners) claim to carry for bear defense. Wish they wouldn't all act like it's some parlor trick or "stupid gun games" gag, and would treat it like life-and-death preparedness that it only makes SENSE that every serious user would be spending time exercising on.

Seems to me that it was more a challenge among friends and colleagues.

Yeah, crazy isn't it? Sort of like, "Holy crap! This guy says he can defend himself with a .454 Casull!!!! Amazing! We've got to try that!"

As though 1,000s of internet posters scrutiny don't claim to buy these guns to do EXACTLY that.

It deserves a much more serious treatment. A mindset problem, on several levels.

 

[Greg528iT]

OK I watched the video, read all the above (well most of the above).

My take.. it's just who can shoot (would even want to) a .454 in rapid succession. It's not about draw speed, it's not about pressure, other than.. I can do it faster than you. I've seen and participated in a few, who can calculate something on a calculator faster.

If you want to apply real world scenarios to it.. DON'T. but Mr Towsley after he's un panicked (if he does) he'd hit a bear more times than the other guys.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh. So it is just a silly gun trick, not a practical skill test? Ok, I guess I misunderstood the point.

 

[CraigC]

Ok, he swept his hand. Point it out and say never to do that again. There is no reason to derail the entire discussion over it.

I guess the fact that full power ammo was used does nothing to refute earlier statements about CAS shooting and mousefart loads.

We don't forgive bad gunhandling from anyone, ever.

What do we do, confiscate their guns and forbid them to ever touch another?

So it is just a silly gun trick, not a practical skill test? Ok, I guess I misunderstood the point.

So we can discuss for several pages about David E doing the same drill and that's relevant but this is a "silly gun trick"???

 

[Sam1911]

I guess the fact that full power ammo was used does nothing to refute earlier statements about CAS shooting and mousefart loads.

Ehhh, ok, I'll have to admit I wasn't following what statements exactly were made in another thread regarding CAS and their light loads. Is this a continuation of that other thread? Does the fact that these guys did this make or refute a point?

CAS shooters tend to use very light loads. Not all do. Other folks use SA wheelguns with heavy loads. You can shoot whatever you want, it seems to me.

We don't forgive bad gunhandling from anyone, ever.

What do we do, confiscate their guns and forbid them to ever touch another?

Yes. Yes we do. That's exactly what we do. Isn't it?

Or, if for some strange reason we can't do that, then maybe we point it out and make it out as the serious error that it is, rather that sweep it aside as "nit-picking" or irrelevant because the loaded very high power handgun is "inert" when not cocked. scrutiny

These things should be made VERY clear to all involved. The hunting magazine guys should have asked him to re-shoot the video rather than publish it with their name on it as a subject-matter examplar for their readers/viewers to see as demonstrating something worthy. If you're going to publish your activities as educational or demonstrative of a practice, you (and certainly any third party who will then use your works in their own publications) owe it to those who will emulate you to do whatever it is with the utmost attention to safety and responsibility.

Failing that, as they did, I'm going to sure as hell point it out. Now, what was it this unsafe goober was trying to demonstrate anyway? banghead

So it is just a silly gun trick, not a practical skill test? Ok, I guess I misunderstood the point.

So we can discuss for several pages about David E doing the same drill and that's relevant but this is a "silly gun trick"???

Are you continuing some other argument in a new thread?

I made a point about these guys treating dangerous game self-defense drills as a lark, when so many folks buy these guns with the avowed purpose of doing EXACTLY that but then -- it would be suggested by these guys' attitudes -- wouldn't be expected to go and regularly practice something so crazy as firing strings of high-powered aimed shots quickly.

So I was looking at it as a very serious, practical exercise and wondering why these dudes were treating it so laughably. It was Greg who suggested it was simply the equivalent of a calculator entry contest for bragging rights among officemates. He said DON'T try to apply it to the real world. I don't understand why one would not.

To me, NOT practicing this sort of thing -- properly, safely, and with focus -- makes your defensive bear gun little more than a four lb. lucky charm.

 

[Radagast]

To most people firearms are a lucky charm / magic fetish. Quite possibly that is the market for that particular media group. That said, full house loads out of a SA are a hoot, and probably no slower in rapid aimed fire than from a double action, at least for the majority of casual shooters.
Sam, I would disagree on having him re-shoot, they should have declared him 'dead' with zero score/time, it would have been safer as that way there is no chance of shooting himself on the re-shoot. This would also have reinforced the need for safety with the audience.
many years ago I was ROing my first state level IPSC match. The chief RO for the state was a shooter. He tripped and fell, his 1911 swung backwards, finger on the trigger and I was looking down the rifling for an hour long millisecond.
Rather than DQ him as the rules required, I took him aside and told him I never wanted to see that again.
5 minutes later while shooting he next stage he fell over again, cutting his knees up badly enough to require medical attention. At least he didn't sweep me that time.
he died suddenly three months later. The instability may have been a sign of medical issues that no one noticed.

The lesson I learned from that was that if someone is so unaware, accident prone or mentally distracted that they can make a major safety blunder, then its time for them to pack the guns away for the day. For their safety and the safety of others.

If the situation is permanent, then the packing away should be permanent. My dad is 80 & has had 4 strokes. I have possession of his rifle and have sold his handgun.

CraigC:
Sorry for the thread-jack. I have a stick-wiv-a-nail-innit named 'Safety' and I like to beat people over the head with it.

Carry on.

 

[CraigC]

I can see that we are not going to get to discuss five shots in less than three seconds with a .454 single action so I'll respond once more and leave this discussion to its own fate.

Statements were made in other discussions that SA's are only run fast with mousefart loads and that one could never come close to the DA's speed with full power loads. Bryce's work refutes that or at least should contribute to some interesting discussion. Not an argument.

David E's exercise was nearly identical, yet that discussion was allowed to run its course without being unnecessarily run into the ground because the shots were not timed from the holster.

Point, I would do very little or no practice from leather to the first shot with full power .454 ammo. You miss your grip with a .22, .38Spl or .45ACP and it might sting your hand. You don't get your grip perfect with a .454 and it will plant the front sight in your face. Those who do this regularly, like some of the guys in the video, understand this all too well. Fact, nobody plays cowboy fast draw with a .454, .475 or .500. Those who actually do this sort of thing know THAT IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN SWEEPING YOUR HAND WITH AN UNCOCKED SA REVOLVER.

Fact, the other guys were shooting at the NRA indoor range. They probably do not allow drawing from leather at that range anyway.

The point was not a bear defense demonstration. The point was a personal challenge among writers to fire five shots in less than three seconds, that was initiated by Towsley's claim. It's not a how-to defend yourself against a bear with a cowboy fast draw move.

If anybody thinks they can do better, post your own video.

Yes. Yes we do. That's exactly what we do. Isn't it?

I'll see if I can get Towsley's address so you can follow through with this.

Personally, I thought we educate people who screw up.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok.

You know what's cool? He fired five shots from a .454 in less than three seconds. That's neat!

 

[Sam1911]

The point was not a bear defense demonstration.

The host said, and I quote, "It's a drill he uses to simulate stopping a bear charge."
That's like the second sentence in the video.

Without that context, it IS just a silly gun trick. In that context it is a vital skill set.

Point, I would do very little or no practice from leather to the first shot with full power .454 ammo. You miss your grip with a .22, .38Spl or .45ACP and it might sting your hand. You don't get your grip perfect with a .454 and it will plant the front sight in your face. Those who do this regularly, like some of the guys in the video, understand this all too well. Fact, nobody plays cowboy fast draw with a .454, .475 or .500. Those who actually do this sort of thing know THAT IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN SWEEPING YOUR HAND WITH AN UNCOCKED SA REVOLVER.

So... the approximately 45,732 folks who've come here (and all the other gun sites) and claimed they needed something north of a super hot loaded .44 Mag because they hike or hunt or fish in bear country really SHOULDN'T be practicing getting off a quick shot or five out of the holster? The whole premise is stopping a huge predator that can cover 30-40 yards in about one second. You're going to support the idea that this is something they should practice "on the job?" Practicing defending yourself with your chosen weapon is too dangerous to do? So you should wait until the bear is charging and assume you're going to rise to the occasion?

I guess I'm going to assume I'm misreading your point because I'm incredulous that you would say such a thing.

 

[CraigC]

I didn't say I wouldn't practice, because I do. I said.....

I would do very little or no practice from leather to the first shot with full power .454 ammo.

 

[rswartsell]

Don't let me stop you guys from belaboring the minutia (OK I get it, you don't think it's minutia when you parse it all the way down).

But on just a casual viewing it seems to inform me that those who choose to hunt or provide dangerous animal protection with a powerful single action, with a good bit of skill development have a feasible, practical weapon at their disposal and can make a pragmatic point in contrast to the AR, poly pistol, tactical/training community.

Lets accept a big tent and understand that diversity can display more than one functional philosophy. Wouldn't we ultimately be stronger for that?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Lol, I got to the 10 inch circle at 5 yards and was done right there.

Oh wait, no. Seriously, I couldn't just leave it there. I full screened the video and looked at the targets.

Lol.

They should lose this video. Oh sure, they shot the gun. Didn't hit a damn thing, but made lots of noise doing it.

 

[rswartsell]

It was a high speed emergency drill, the accuracy was sufficient to cause major, likely fatal damage to a dangerous animal at close quarters. In non-emergency situations handgun hunters routinely take deliberate effective accuracy shots at distances that the average hand-gunner would not approach same zip code. One reason that they CAN is due to power levels that dwarf the average handgun. It takes skill to manage that and the demonstration is sheerly of recoil management in an emergency drill. (Is it that hard to grasp?)

In a charging bear situation it demonstrates that the single action handgun with sufficient power to qualify as a major "hunter" will very likely at close distance be of a great deal more use than your 26" bbl. .338 Magnum.

When you can post a video of your no doubt far superior performance, I'd be happy to see that too.

 

[David E]

Since I'm being mentioned, multiple times, some corrections are in order, as I'm being "credited" with things I never said or being shown I was wrong on points I never made.

Statements were made in other discussions that SA's are only run fast with mousefart loads

True. 2.88 for five shots STARTING AIMED IN WITH A COCKED HAMMER AND FINGER ON THE TRIGGER.....isn't fast.

The CAS boys are well under a second for the same feat with their light loads.

and that one could never come close to the DA's speed with full power loads.

I said several times that WHEN TWO HANDS ARE USED, the difference isn't as pronounced. MY main point was how much things change when you only have ONE hand available, which is where the DA leaves the SA behind.

Bryce's work refutes that

How? He didn't compare it to a DA revolver and didn't use one hand.

David E's exercise was nearly identical, yet that discussion was allowed to run its course without being unnecessarily run into the ground because the shots were not timed from the holster

As I explained then, I didn't start from a holster for several reasons. One was I didn't want to include the draw time in the overall time, as it was the shot to shot time I was specifically measuring and comparing between SA and DA

 

[Red Cent]

When I show Deuce doing 10 shots in under three seconds including reaction time, draw, fire 5 rounds, holster draw with weak hand, transfer gun, fire five rounds they use the mousefart statement. CraigC, you are above that I think.

The demonstrations are what they are. Feats of practice and inate ability. Nothing more.

And sweeping body parts has nothing to do with saving one's self from a dangerous animal.

Actually, you guys are above all of this.

I used to do the 10 rounds in about 3.50 seconds. I just gotta try the 454 and three seconds.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

...the accuracy was sufficient to cause major, likely fatal damage to a dangerous animal at close quarters.

Oh please, no it's not. If you can't hit a 10 inch circle at 5 yards you aren't stopping a rabid charging marshmallow much less a bear.

In non-emergency situations handgun hunters routinely take deliberate effective accuracy shots at distances that the average hand-gunner would not approach same zip code.

Well, they quite clearly weren't taking deliberate aimed shots, so that's non-sequitur.

In a charging bear situation it demonstrates that the single action handgun with sufficient power to qualify as a major "hunter" will very likely at close distance be of a great deal more use than your 26" bbl. .338 Magnum.

That's funny, because the whole time I was watching the video I couldn't stop thinking about how more accurate and quick these guys would have been with a slug gun. Sure, a super high power SA revolver can fit the role, and at least one person in the video seems to have done the challenge. But, to anyone being honest, what the video really showed is that said person is the exception, not the rule, and most people shouldn't be going that route.

 

[Sam1911]

The aggravating thing is that I'm pretty certain that those revolvers -- or their DA brothers, certainly -- CAN be used effectively in that role.

IF the shooter makes the effort to learn to do so and to practice like they might live or die based on their skill with the gun. But I guess it is apparent that even folks who are really into big revolvers don't do realistic practice with full power ammo. That must make the bears sleep better at night.

 

[Combat Engineer]

Yes they can, and I do. But its draw and fire (from holster) to first shot for me. Why? Because I may not get a second shot off before that big Griz crashes into me.

Out on the trail, one wag quipped: "Where does a bear sleep? *




*Anywhere he/she wants to.

 

[David E]

what the video really showed is that said person is the exception, not the rule, and most people shouldn't be going that route

What the video showed me is that hardly any of the staff practice much, if ever, with powerful handguns, much less firing it quickly.

There were two guys that I knew wouldn't make time just by the way they stood and/or held the gun.

As far as "it's first shot from the holster for me," I won't minimize the importance of that skill, but it's not as fast as already having the gun out. If I encountered a bear that might charge, it'd be prudent to carefully draw the gun and have it instantly ready instead of relying on my lightning fast draw should he decide to charge.

 

[CraigC]

Since I'm being mentioned, multiple times, some corrections are in order, as I'm being "credited" with things I never said or being shown I was wrong on points I never made.

Your thread and your drill were mentioned, nothing more. No words were put in your mouth. I mentioned your thread because while the drill is nearly the same, no one derailed yours because it wasn't done from the holster.

True. 2.88 for five shots STARTING AIMED IN WITH A COCKED HAMMER AND FINGER ON THE TRIGGER.....isn't fast.

It is when you're shooting a 300gr at 1600fps. Have you ever even shot a .454?

I got to the 10 inch circle at 5 yards and was done right there.

You obviously didn't watch until the end, Bryce Towsley's shooting, which is what I was referencing.

I guess it is apparent that even folks who are really into big revolvers don't do realistic practice with full power ammo.

You obviously do not understand what it takes to shoot sixgun with REALLY heavy recoil successfully. Full power .454 loads are not something to fart around with. Of course, it's always those who have never done it who are the biggest experts.

What the video showed me is that hardly any of the staff practice much, if ever, with powerful handguns, much less firing it quickly.

A couple were definitely questionable but maybe you're not as astute as you think. I know that at least one of them shoots and hunts with little else. Anyone who considers themselves a serious revolver shooter should be familiar with Max Prasac's work.

If I encountered a bear that might charge, it'd be prudent to carefully draw the gun and have it instantly ready instead of relying on my lightning fast draw should he decide to charge.

That much we can agree on.

 

[David E]

Your thread and your drill were mentioned, nothing more. No words were put in your mouth.

Yet, you're challenging conclusions or points I never made. Therefore, corrections to your assertions are required.

I mentioned your thread because while the drill is nearly the same, no one derailed yours because it wasn't done from the holster.

The reasons why I didn't include the draw was explained several times. No mention was made here about why it was excluded from the video.

It is when you're shooting a 300gr at 1600fps. Have you ever even shot a .454?

When I mentioned the super fast two handed shooting with cowboy loads, I must've missed your response "yeah, but 2.88 is smoking for a .454!" Oh, right. We were discussing loads suitable for general self defense, not grizzly defense.

 

[CraigC]

Yet, you're challenging conclusions or points I never made. Therefore, corrections to your assertions are required.

No, I am not.

The reasons why I didn't include the draw was explained several times. No mention was made here about why it was excluded from the video.

It's not pertinent. The point I was trying to make is that Sam1911 dismissed the exercise as a "silly gun trick" but no such statements were made in your thread. Nor was it derailed before it got off the ground.

We were discussing loads suitable for general self defense, not grizzly defense.

Fast work with single actions by CAS shooters was arbitrarily dismissed due to the loads used. I made a counterpoint.