More reason to stay with 7.62 x 39

[Justin]

Ok, I'll admit to being really intrigued by the Rock River guns shown above...

 

[Girodin]

You're right about him, he has turned a little goofy about the AK on his website. I got into an argument with him on the subject.

Did he lob personal insults, lock the thread and ban you?

What is funny is when you compare what he is doing now with what he used to say a couple years ago about people who modified their AKs in similar ways.

That rock river does look very interesting. Hopefully, they were smarter than sig and wont turn out rifles that cannot run steel case reliably. I don't know what the street price will be but it better be a real good gun for the $1400+ listed on their website. That is about the price of taking my draco or mini draco, making it an SBR, and going all out on modifying it to have a full top rail, flip up BUIS, an AR style safety, flash hider, folding magpul CTR stock, etc.

Its definitely an interesting idea and I'm eager to see how well the execute it.

 

[TrickyDick]

hmm

 

[Adam123]

I'm no ballistics expert, however, I've used the round quite a bit. I wouldn't dismiss it's distance and accuracy as that of a slingshot.

Slingshot accuracy? You are not supposed to use a slingshot to propel your 7.62x39 round forward. 7.62x39 can be very accurate.

If the point of having a rifle is the ability to accurately engage a target at distance, why in the world would anyone handwave away "accuracy and long distance reach" on a rifle?

I think that is funny how people talk about long-distance accuracy as if everyone consistently takes deer/hogs/whatever a 400+yard distances. It's rather asinine. Very few people will ever bother to attempt a shot at anything over 300 yards. Does it happen? Of course it does, but not often. Most shots are taken within 200 yards (or a lot less) and within that distance, 7.62x39 wins. Besides if I were to take a shot at anything beyond 300 yards, I sure as heck wouldn't want a .223 or 5.45.

 

[mortablunt]

Enough with the arguments. Let's keep it High Road. We are the called The High Horse.

I'm an AK fan too, but I'd rather not see interesting threads turn into bickering.

 

[Girodin]

I was searching for some other info and came across this old post buy Mr. Suarez on his forum http://www.warriortalk.com/archive/index.php/t-14118.html

I think you should keep your AK as close as possible to stock to avoid the "Excalibur syndrome". However, there are things you can do to enhace its utility without changing the design.

1). Remove the sharp edges at the safety lever, the ejection port cover, and any other place you find them. This is easily done with a dremel, or a file. Don't worry about the finish. Its an AK, not an heirloom. A little paint and you are good to go.

2). Loosen the safety selector lever slightly by pulling it back and away from the receiver. Go easy, but this should decrease the tension to activate it considerably. be sure it is still under tension, but just not as bad.

3). Keep a short stock on it. Unless you are built like a tactical behemoth, you will benefit from a shorter stock than from a longer one.

4). Remove any sharp edges on the magazine release lever and at or around the magazine well. Again...a little spray of black paint.

5). Add a sling to the rifle. Keep the sling simple. What slings do I use? Currently, I am using MilSurp Soviet rifle slings. There are better ones, but avoid the ones that come with a 30 minute DVD on how to use a sling. SIMPLE IS BETTER.

6). Magazines. Do I need to say this? Make sure all your magazines fit your rifle. All of them are good. I'd avoid some of the US made magazine as they often do not fit the rifles.

I like the Bulgarian Polymer Waffle Types. Just as good are steel magazines from East germany, Bulgaria, Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and even China. Want to know how to lose a great deal of money? Build a business that repairs AK magazines. You'll be lonelier than the Maytag guy!.

Get at least 5 magazines. More is better here. I have close to 30 for my various AKs.

Now grab your warthog of a rifle with your heavy steel magazines and go shoot it. Once you get used to working an AK, you'll spend less time with other rifles...its kind of like the Glock.

From later in that same thread:

ventually I will set up the Warrior Talk Kalashnikov. It will be very simple. It will have the following -


Ultimak Gas Tube with a Dot Optic (undecided on which one)
Green USA pistol grip and fore end
AK-74 folding stock
USA made Vortex type flash suppressor
XS front sight, and slightly wider rear notch (same as a pistol)
Sling (I have an idea on this and am looking for a manufacturer)
Parkerized finish
Bulgarian polymer mags
Small weaver mount screwed onto the fore end for flashlightThats it...no space age fore end to attach vaccuum cleaners and coffee makers. No modified safety as I take it off with my index finger and leave it off during the fight/drill. No need to hold the bolt open as I don't try to run the beast like an AR-15. Its an AK. I accept and embrace that fact.
Colombianito

and this gem

Do not try to turn your AK into an M4.
Cool is minimal and minimal is cool.

Rifles overdone with excessive bells and whistles (and weight) are like ugly cars with all the chrome plated dood-ads at Pep Boys....eye catching, but you won't get caught dead driving something like that. Remember the old show The A-Team? Ok?!

You need a flash suppressor or muzzle brake? Cool, get one. My AKs have slant brakes or AK-74 US made brakes.

You need a folding stock? Cool, Tapco is fine, Romanina or E. German, or Polish Tantal are fine. Forget the M4 lookalike.

You need a new pistol grip, get one.

You need a sling, get one. My rifles...all my personal rifles have 2 point simpleton slings.

You need a light on the gun? Ok, get a wever rail and screw the thing on...or get the forened described by trackwolf. Put a light on it and leave it alone.

You want optics, and I do like optics, get an Ultimak Gas Tube and bolt a forward mounted optic on it. One of my rifles has an Aimpoint/Ultimak combo in its future.

That is it....

Dehorn the thing.
Pry up the safety/selector lever for easier manipulation.
Buy some good meat ammo and zero it at 25 yards.

......and then leave the rifle alone.

Minimizing (to get the job done) IS Maximizing.

I like this one in light of how he pushes collapsible AR stocks these days:

If you need a collapsible stock, a folder will do better. The only reason the M4 uses that stock is because the recoil spring assembly is in the stock. It does make the M4 more compact than a standard M16, but not more compact, or robust than an AK with a milsurp folder.

And here is what he said when he was asked why he didn't like the collapsible stocks and in response to a direct question about the Vltor adapter and Magpul CTR combo. Compare it to what he says, uses and pushes today.

I must be honest.

The AK is not about light. It is an evil Klingon weapon made for killing that you can shoot someone with, or you can beat them to death with it. There is little on the weapon that can break, and little on the weapon that can't be used, well..as a weapon.

The AK is not about comfort. It is not for shooting cloverleaf groups. Rather than adjust the AK to the shooter, the shooter adjusts to fit the AK. If it feels uncomfortable and has edges and is heavy, live with it for a year and all of those complaints will go away.

I can take my Bulgarian triangle folder and work out on the heavy bag using it to hit and smash. I can probably beat down a small tree with it without any detrimental effects on the stock. I can put a bayonet on it and it will probably last through a gang fight long after my Vltor would be in several pieces.

I doubt highly ANY M4 stock can take that kind of abuse. So that is why. However, I would be glad to sell you a Vltor kit if you like....but I wold not put one on my rifle.

Nowadays he is pimping his own "excaliber," pictured below, for $1200+ or an even fancier $1900 one. It is about as far from as close to stock as possible as one can get. He is advertising it as "buil[t] . . . without any concessions to ComBloc fashions." It has the newest fanciest fore end out and has the very safety lever that he thinks is unneeded. It also seems that US palm mags (with their lack of steel in the feed lips) somehow blow all the other mags, that 6 years ago just couldn't fail, out of the water. I also regularly see him call tapco stuff "crapco" (to be fair their folder is, IDK why he was every saying it was fine). Oh, how a couple years and the potential to make money has changed that guy's tune. I remember old posts on his sight bashing H20man's AK, which was one of the first I saw with the Vltor adapter that Gabe is so keen on these days. His efforts to add: a top rail, railed hand guard, modern flash hiders, magpul stocks, fancy refinishes, etc etc make me literally laugh when juxtaposed against his older (and very strongly worded) writings about AR-izing an AK. I get that better products come out and it only makes sense to switch to something truly better. However Gabe has not only changed is whole approach he used to vehemently bash what he has become and now does the same with reference to what he was. I wonder what his next flavor of the week will be?

 

[bubba in ca]

Reasons to stay with the 7.62 x 39, 2012:
guns and ammo are cheap and readily available in most parts of the US. Not the best guns and ammo in the world, but neither is the Remington 870 and the Mossy 500 and there a 20.000.000 of these floating around and more being made every day.

The ak47 was designed for mass infantry attacks while hiding behind tanks (not penciled in on my daily planner) and shooting people in urban warfare (a very slim possibility for me) at distances more likely to be in feet rather than yards, much less in hundreds of yards.

For the average Joe contemplating the possibility ofany closeup work, a good economical choice.

 

[LAK]

.. AR-izing an AK ..

I am not sure what this means, since the only real technical difference between an AR-15 and an AK is a variation on the same type operating system.

 

[Averageman]

I get that better products come out and it only makes sense to switch to something truly better. However Gabe has not only changed is whole approach he used to vehemently bash what he has become and now does the same with reference to what he was. I wonder what his next flavor of the week will be?
I agree his approach has changed and what once was, simply isn't now. You can't say he has a closed mind or he wouldn't adapt these things to where they are now.
I bought one of the Glock Slides, Barrels and Trijicon RMR's he makes, essentially it is the best Glock I've ever shot.
He may be gruff at times, but put your hands on some of the stuff they make and see if it isn't quality.

 

[briansmithwins]

I am not sure what this means, since the only real technical difference between an AR-15 and an AK is a variation on the same type operating system.

Well, technically speaking, all self loading firearms are powered either by recoil or by gas. So sure, the AK and the AR are the same at that level.

There are some differences in the implementation.

BSW

 

[Adam123]

I don't know this Suarez guy (never heard of him until I saw this thread), but damn, you guys are really making at a concerted effort to bash him. I look at it like this: People change their taste and preferences. I'd hate to have to keep all of the opinions and viewpoints that I had four years ago. It would be rather interesting if I were to go back research all of you and come back saying "Well, you did say this in 2007". I used to love ARs and thought an AK was a 12 MOA rifle. Now, I much prefer an AK because I realize they are capable of 1 MOA. Should I be compelled to prefer ARs now because I liked them four years ago? It's stupid.

 

[armoredman]

I stay with 7.62x39mm because I reload for it, cast for it, have two rifles chambered in it, and my range only goes to 300 yards. I also am not the worlds greatest long range rifleman, and am confident of the rifle being able to hit a man sized target at 200 yards, if I get some time.

 

[gunnutery]

The problem I have with these discussions is that the paramiters for discussion aren't clear (no offense to the OP). Some people are debating the use of x39 for military, and others are debating the use of x39 for civilian/shtf.

 

[Ledhore]

I cast and load for my AK in x39 and even though my buddies have tricked out AR's, no matter how much I shoot theirs, I just love the hell out of the AK. I wouldn't even attempt to justify it, it's just a love it or hate it thing.

 

[Bohemus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjyATeKO7vg
I wont deny that.

 

[Ignition Override]

A coworker was was with Special Forces in Desert Storm (no...not a wannabe). Other coworkers can describe the unit he was with.

He stated that "Our guns jammed, so we picked up AKs.", when asked about whether he preferred US-designed or Russian-designed rifles.

This perception keeps any x39 designed by Russia (or, the Soviets) quite popular, but the price might be the primary motivator in the US.

 

[allaroundhunter]

A coworker was was with Special Forces in Desert Storm (no...not a wannabe). Other coworkers can describe the unit he was with.

He stated that "Our guns jammed, so we picked up AKs.", when asked about whether he preferred US-designed or Russian-designed rifles.

This has been posted multiple times, and it is a load of.....

 

[jim243]

I would have liked to see the same brick test with a 30-06, 270 Winchester or even the puny .308. What has everyone gone brain dead on what calibers actually work?

Jim

 

[Jibs]

"cartridge fanboy" LOL

 

[HGM22]

FWIW, I would be hesitant to take what the military does as gospel. They have different needs/wants and different tools available to them (as has already been posted). As such, the round they pick is not done with the same criteria you might use.

Specifically, I think logistics had a lot more to do with it than terminal effectiveness, especially when you're talking the Cold War era.

 

[valnar]

What I like about the 7.62x39 is the "low cost of entry" into the .30 caliber club, both in price and recoil. If you like to sling big bullets without the need to go 600 yards like a .30-06, this is it (and the .30-30 of course).

 

[Sam Cade]

I don't know this Suarez guy (never heard of him until I saw this thread), but damn, you guys are really making at a concerted effort to bash him.

Short version. He plead guilty to fraud, money laundering and grand theft.


After he got he out of the pokey he was going to go on a murderous rampage but at the last possible moment the voices in his head told him not to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKgjDpcQMU

So use your own judgement.

 

[Adam123]

I like how the thread has progressed from a discussion of a cartridge to people posting someone's past problems. Aside from this tabloid-like extravaganza of postings that reminds me of Entertainment Tonight or Hard Copy, the guy seems genuine and candid about his past.

OK so, he was trained to kill via his job and probably did have to kill (I don't know). Those situations and experiences affect everyone differently. Some guys might be able to sit back, relax and eat a Subway sandwich after taking out some "bad guys". Others could be very traumatized by the experience. I'm assuming that you're familiar with soldiers coming back from war and having issues with violence. Some people have very hard with flicking the switch and going to Mr. Normal Nice Guy. Everyone is wired differently.... but hey, by all means, continue to bash the guy because I am sure you're perfect.

 

[mortablunt]

^ Not everyone handles things the same. and what is tollerable for one man could be traumatizing to another. Now could we cut trolling over past statements and preferences in order to focus on the thread purpose?

 

[jmstevens2]

A coworker was was with Special Forces in Desert Storm (no...not a wannabe). Other coworkers can describe the unit he was with.

He stated that "Our guns jammed, so we picked up AKs.", when asked about whether he preferred US-designed or Russian-designed rifles.

This perception keeps any x39 designed by Russia (or, the Soviets) quite popular, but the price might be the primary motivator in the US.

Mine didn't. I was arctic trained and knew to not lube the crap out of it in a sand environment. And I wasn't SF, just Infantry. By the way, most of the time when we shot at the enemy, we used an Apache, or Warthog. We shot more rifle rounds in training than combat. Can't speak for everyone, but that was the case for most.