Mosin Nagant accuracy with & without bayonet [Revisited]

[DilboFlaggins]

To start off here's a link to the old thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=619554&highlight=nagant+bayonet

I, like many who own a Mosin Nagant, have heard that the rifle was meant to be fired with the bayonet attached to optimize accuracy.

Russian military doctrine at the time dictated that the bayonet be attached at all times, unless traveling by vehicle.
The idea was to fire your five shots, then use your weapon as a spear.
And some claim that firing without the bayonet screws with the barrel harmonics and make your rifle inaccurate.

The general consensus, seems to be that the grouping or accuracy wont change, but the point of impact will

We could go 'round and 'round again on this issue, but what I'd like to do is put some data to paper.

I have a project for you guys.
Go out and shoot your nugget with and without the bayonet, then bring me back a report.

I want details on the gun and ammo.
What range did you shoot?
How did you shoot?
What was your grouping like?

I cant expect to be able to go shooting any time soon as I have no money and no ammo, but I'm curious to see some actual holes in paper.

If anyone has some better ideas on how to make the test uniform, please contribute, I'm reluctant to put forward anything to specific because I expect that many variables will come up once we we actually get into this, if we actually get into this.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

For my part - were I to care, I would have two identically dimensioned rifles and use the second as a running standard firing the same ammo under the same conditions (time, weather, barrel heat etc...) as you check the effects of bayonet removal on your rifle.

I would certainly begin the firing of yours with the bayonet attached.

 

[Murphy4570]

I'll have to go do that some time. Maybe after I grind out the inside diameter of my bayonets so they fit without using a hammer!

 

[bentongunclub]

I may give it a try this coming week. I went to the range yesterday but it was COLD and WINDY. Made for a miserable day. I have Mosins from 41, 42, 43 and 44. I am going to also experiment with corking as an accurizing method. Results from my first outing were anywhere from 4in to 8in. I was using some Yugo 'sniper ammo'. I also have some regular 146gr? or is it 148gr? on hand to try out. When all else fails then I have some handloads made with Norma brass and Sierra hunting and Sierra target rounds. Best accuracy out of my PU sniper has been with the Yugoso far. I brought the bayonets out that day but it was miserable, windy, and cold.

 

[mberoose]

If I can get to the range next weekend, I can certainly try with my '48 M44 w/ 147 gr. mil-surp.

 

[MrSpiffy]

I actually tried what the OP is suggesting, and it turned out to be true. At least, with my rifle. I could hardly hit paper with it, missing wide right. After attaching the bayonet, it hit right at POA. I ended up drifting the sight over a bit to avoid using the bayonet, as it's a real pain to get off once it's on.

I don't think it's so much the barrel harmonics that get messed up. I think it's the expanding gasses. When the bullet comes out, I'm guessing they cause a higher pressure area between the bullet and the bayonet, which pushes the bullet away from the bayonet. My bayonet screws on such that it sits to the right of my barrel, so that makes the most sense to me. It shot to the right without the bayonet, and right on target with the bayonet.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I'll have to go do that some time. Maybe after I grind out the inside diameter of my bayonets so they fit without using a hammer!

Heat is your friend.

Get some conical shaped object, preferably metal, that will fit into, but not through, the bayonet opening.

Put the bayonet in a vice and heat the metal ring with a torch. Us the above mentioned item with a hammer to spread the ring a bit (doesn't take much).

Beats trying to grind the inside of the ring!

 

[Beak50]

My Polish M-44 does shoot better with the side bayo extended but is far from a tack driver.I don't think unless you get a sniper variant "Rare" or put alot of money into it,it will ever be a tack driver they are cheap combat rifle's.Fun to shoot though and I have shot alot of them but I only have my M-44 Pole now.I think I paid $40.00 for it 20some yrs. ago.

 

[kaferhaus]

Hanging anything off of, or attaching anything to the barrel will change harmonics. I highly doubt the rifle was "designed" to be shot with a bayonet attached. Bayonets are not precision made implements. Gather up a bunch of them and weigh them. I guarantee you will find wild differences in weight. Therefore, the entire premise of the rifle being "designed" to be shot with the bayonet attached is erroneous. Bayonets of different weights would have an effect on POI. Likely large ones.

Some may indeed shoot better with it attached, some without.

As another poster mentions, these were cheap, crudely made mass produced infantry rifles that were for the most part issued to poorly trained peasants and conscripts.

The Russians defeated the Germans by overwhelming them, not by out shooting them. Much the same as we did.

Sad to say, but in battles involving opposing units of equal strength, the Germans almost always won. Including engagements with US and British forces.

 

[carbine85]

I have (1) M44 and (1)M38 and my brother has a 91/30. None of them shoot more accurately with the bayonets, however the point of impact is different.

 

[DilboFlaggins]

Good news everyone!
I may get payed enough to go shooting on sunday.
Though I may have to make do with the 10 rounds I have left.

Who's up for pix of 2 poorly shot 5 shot groups in a week?

 

[VancMike]

BentonGunClub wrote: ".....but it was miserable, windy, and cold....."

I understand to get the true Russian Moisin Nagant experience, that's the only time you could fire them!!!

 

[moon928]

I've tried it both ways, and I can't notice any real difference. Guess I was lucky because mine slips on and off easily yet seats firmly. I did add a thin cork strip to the very end of the barrel and one .015 shim near the lug. The 1st couple of shots seem high and to the right but once it gets hot it shoots like a champ in the 200-300 yard range using Russian surplus ammo.

 

[bentongunclub]

OK. Went to the range yesterday with my 1942, 1943, and 1944 M/N's. Used some combloc 'sniper' ammo that I think I recall to be 174gr not attracted to a magnet stuff. Groups of 5 shots each. No photos at this time, maybe later if I get the floors clean, the yard straightened up, and the rest of my life in order.

1942 - Two groups without the bayonet were approximately 8-10 inches at 100 yards. Two groups with the bayonet were approximately 3 inches and about 10 inches to the left.

1943 - Two groups without the bayonet were approximately 3 inches at 100 yards. Two groups with the bayonet were also about 3 inches and were about 3 inches to the left.

1944 - Two groups without the bayonet approx 3-4 inches at 100 yards. Two groups with bayonet unchanged.

The leaf sight was set on "1" for all of my shooting with each rifle. All of them shot approximately 20 inches high at 100yds and 175yds. Today I will experiment with changing the front post using either a nail of some sort or a headed decapping pin that I have laying around.

 

[Pyro]

It's really about the same but I always shoot with the bayonet attached.
I notice slightly larger groups without the bayonet but nothing that won't shoot 'minute-of-badguy.

A Mosin Nagant without a bayonet attached/unfolded is just ugly imo.

 

[fireman 9731]

The rifles were not "designed" to shoot with a bayonet attached, their sights at the arsenal were regulated to shoot to point of aim with the bayonet attached.

In the good chance that your rifle shoots to the left or right without the bayo, simply drift your front sight over so that it shoots to point of aim.

 

[Franco2shoot]

I'm probably part of that initial thread. My experience is with the 1943 91/30 as its the only Mosin I've tried to accurize. It has a nice scope mounted via the ATI option, and once corked, (thin cork shims under the first band) it started delivering 1 MOA consistantly. Differing ammo wound raise of lower impact at 100 yards, and using a bench rest. Experiments with and without the bayonet kept the displacement of shots the same, the pattern was just moved from center to lower rignt. A couple clicks and I could be tearing a ragged hole in the bull.

I've read that Soviet doctrine during the Stalin years mandated that the rifle be ALWAYs carried with the bayonet attached, more for intimidation factor that any shooting results.

KKKKFL

 

[bentongunclub]

I have found the cure for the short front sight post. I found a video on how do drift the front sight off so the post can be punched out through the bottom. A longer replacement post can be made from RCBS headed de-capping pins. I start by trimming/grinding the pins to 16.3mm in total length. the head of the pin needs to be hand ground and fitted into the bottom of the sight ring. I used bastard files, plumbers sanding paper strips, and my dremmel tool. I took one out today and it was shooting a tad bit high (about 4 inches). Did three rifles in about an hour. If I like them I will disassemble the sight and put it back together with a touch of JB or MarineTex for stability.

 

[Murphy4570]

Heat is your friend.

Get some conical shaped object, preferably metal, that will fit into, but not through, the bayonet opening.

Put the bayonet in a vice and heat the metal ring with a torch. Us the above mentioned item with a hammer to spread the ring a bit (doesn't take much).

Beats trying to grind the inside of the ring!

Hmn, that is an intriguing proposition. What about the finish on the bayonet? Won't the torch burn that soviet bluing off, and the bare metal rust?

Might be a good excuse for me to buy a small bluing kit...