R.W.Dale
Member
Third most powerful actually
7.92x57 JS 154 gr. Ball had a muzzle velocity of 2,880 fps and 2,835 ft. lbs.
.30'06 150 gr. Ball had a muzzle velocity of 2,740 fps and 2,500 ft. lbs.
Mosin Nagant Rifles
- Thread starter SwordRapier
- Start date
- Status
Third most powerful actually
7.92x57 JS 154 gr. Ball had a muzzle velocity of 2,880 fps and 2,835 ft. lbs.
.30'06 150 gr. Ball had a muzzle velocity of 2,740 fps and 2,500 ft. lbs.
Krochus
I don't know about every single load performances....the 3 rounds are so extremely close that one could perform better in a specific load compared to another one and vice versa.
I heard of WWII era 147 gr. 7,62x54R loads capable of close to 3000 fps...for example, if you go to the http://www.7.62x54r.net/ web site in the ammo evaluation section (http://www.7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm) you will see that almost entirely all the milsurp 147-150 gr. ammo tested are capable of well over 2800 fps (average between a given series of shots) and some exceeded 2900 fps (average as well).
I ranked these 3 cartridges based on their pressure ratings (CIP, SAAMI doesn't officially rate the 7,62x54R and the "American" 8mm Mauser is a downloaded version) and case capacity.
1) 30-06, max CIP pressure rating: 59K psi (60K SAAMI), case capacity: 68 gr. H2O
2) 7.62x54R, max CIP pressure rating: 58K psi, case capacity: 64 gr. H2O
3) 7.92x57 JS, max CIP pressure rating: 57K psi, case capacity: 63 gr. H2O
I don't know about every single load performances....the 3 rounds are so extremely close that one could perform better in a specific load compared to another one and vice versa.
I heard of WWII era 147 gr. 7,62x54R loads capable of close to 3000 fps...for example, if you go to the http://www.7.62x54r.net/ web site in the ammo evaluation section (http://www.7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm) you will see that almost entirely all the milsurp 147-150 gr. ammo tested are capable of well over 2800 fps (average between a given series of shots) and some exceeded 2900 fps (average as well).
I ranked these 3 cartridges based on their pressure ratings (CIP, SAAMI doesn't officially rate the 7,62x54R and the "American" 8mm Mauser is a downloaded version) and case capacity.
1) 30-06, max CIP pressure rating: 59K psi (60K SAAMI), case capacity: 68 gr. H2O
2) 7.62x54R, max CIP pressure rating: 58K psi, case capacity: 64 gr. H2O
3) 7.92x57 JS, max CIP pressure rating: 57K psi, case capacity: 63 gr. H2O
Last edited:
svaz
Member
Congrats. Accurizing info & more can be found here: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=28&sid=6c05c334c716b3b818616ab2d126cc88
I think it is pretty much "common knowledge" that no one does the Mosin as well as the Finns. That's not to say your Hungarian isn't top notch, it could very well be the bee's knees, but Finn Mosins are like German scopes and Italian sports cars - there's some je ne sais quoi that borders on the mystical.
FWIW, a Hungarian is on my 'list'.
I think it is pretty much "common knowledge" that no one does the Mosin as well as the Finns. That's not to say your Hungarian isn't top notch, it could very well be the bee's knees, but Finn Mosins are like German scopes and Italian sports cars - there's some je ne sais quoi that borders on the mystical.
FWIW, a Hungarian is on my 'list'.
content
Member
Hello friends and neighbors // Thanks for the info savz
I'm just an entry level user of the Mosin but once I looked down the barrel I figured $90.00 was worth it. They pull up very nice and comfortable.
I'm just an entry level user of the Mosin but once I looked down the barrel I figured $90.00 was worth it. They pull up very nice and comfortable.
chuckusaret
member
I shoot with a few other guys that have 91/30's, M38's and M44's. We have found that the $59.95 guns are just as accurate as the $500 ones at up to 300 yds. I would like to compare them at greater ranges but there are no facilities in my area that have anything greater than 300 yds. I like my 91/30's with the exception of the trigger, I will do the mod to improve it based on the info provided by svaz.
Cosmoline
Member
Yes, but for how much longer I don't know. Not too much longer by the look of it. Here are some I found, but they're twice as hard to dig out than they were six months ago:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=147903397
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=148237356
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=147981603
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=147225821
WGA also still has some.
raindog
Member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2009
- Messages
- 103
Finnish prices are climbing, or rather have climbed, to ridiculous levels.
If you're a collector, go for it. If you just want a bolt-action rifle to shoot, the Finns are at the point where you can buy a new bolt-action commercial rifle for the same price, and there's no risk.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the Mausers made the M-Ns obsolete. The M-Ns still worked just fine and while I'd rather go into battle with a Mauser 98 than an M-N, the former didn't offer any advantage so overwhelming that the latter was obsolete.
One could argue that the 7.62x54R is a better round than 8mm Mauser, also.
The M-Ns are notorious for two problems:
1. The bolt often sticks and is hard to open. I've not that that problem with mine, but it is common. M-N fans bring a mallet or 2x4 to the range.
2. The trigger is AWFUL. Ridiculously hard pull. The Mauser is night and day. Every Mauser I've owned has had a very sweet two-stage trigger. Nice takeup to first resistance and a clean break. I'm referring to run-of-the-mill Turkish 1891 Mausers that really have awesome triggers. Even later Yugo 24/47s, etc. have great triggers.
In addition, Mauser's safety system is obviously superior.
That said, they're both bolt-action rifles firing big bullets, carry five rounds, etc. Either will go through hell and keep working. The Mauser is much nicer but either will do the job.
If you're a collector, go for it. If you just want a bolt-action rifle to shoot, the Finns are at the point where you can buy a new bolt-action commercial rifle for the same price, and there's no risk.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the Mausers made the M-Ns obsolete. The M-Ns still worked just fine and while I'd rather go into battle with a Mauser 98 than an M-N, the former didn't offer any advantage so overwhelming that the latter was obsolete.
One could argue that the 7.62x54R is a better round than 8mm Mauser, also.
The M-Ns are notorious for two problems:
1. The bolt often sticks and is hard to open. I've not that that problem with mine, but it is common. M-N fans bring a mallet or 2x4 to the range.
2. The trigger is AWFUL. Ridiculously hard pull. The Mauser is night and day. Every Mauser I've owned has had a very sweet two-stage trigger. Nice takeup to first resistance and a clean break. I'm referring to run-of-the-mill Turkish 1891 Mausers that really have awesome triggers. Even later Yugo 24/47s, etc. have great triggers.
In addition, Mauser's safety system is obviously superior.
That said, they're both bolt-action rifles firing big bullets, carry five rounds, etc. Either will go through hell and keep working. The Mauser is much nicer but either will do the job.
alemonkey
Member
I just saw an M39 in the shop today for $249. The stock was a little rough but it was unlike any other finn stock I've ever seen, kind of a yellowish blond striped piece of wood.
ohgrady
Member
There are purists who tell you "don't change the configuration of the rifle" and that you shouldn't change the rifle (I have friends who say it) because of the "history" of the rifle. When I hear those statements about Mosion Nagants, I think of two things
1. People are buying them for $69.95. They are all over the place and like buying beanie babies. I don't expect to get rich off of my Mosin as collectors items.
2. Remember what Ted Turner pointed out to folks when there was an uproar about him colorizing old black and white films/movies: "I own them." Just as people take classic Chevy's and put 350 V8 engines in them instead of the six cylinder that it came out with, it's your rifle, do what makes you happy!
I have two Mosins, (both 91/30's), made in 1931 and a 1943. I really enjoy both of them. The 1943 is mismatched numbers, but fun to shoot. I'm going to put a Weaver #48401 side mount base on it with Weaver side mount rings #49350.
One of my favorite things about the Mosins is $4.00 a box ammo. My Dad shoots a 30-06 and the cheapest ammo I've found for his is $12.50. Cheaper ammo means you likely shoot more, which means you get more practice in and are hopefully a better shot.
1. People are buying them for $69.95. They are all over the place and like buying beanie babies. I don't expect to get rich off of my Mosin as collectors items.
2. Remember what Ted Turner pointed out to folks when there was an uproar about him colorizing old black and white films/movies: "I own them." Just as people take classic Chevy's and put 350 V8 engines in them instead of the six cylinder that it came out with, it's your rifle, do what makes you happy!
I have two Mosins, (both 91/30's), made in 1931 and a 1943. I really enjoy both of them. The 1943 is mismatched numbers, but fun to shoot. I'm going to put a Weaver #48401 side mount base on it with Weaver side mount rings #49350.
One of my favorite things about the Mosins is $4.00 a box ammo. My Dad shoots a 30-06 and the cheapest ammo I've found for his is $12.50. Cheaper ammo means you likely shoot more, which means you get more practice in and are hopefully a better shot.
Pileatus
Member
What about all that cosmoline though? I've heard that some of the milsurp Mosins have enough of that stuff on them for three or four rifles. I don't know if it makes more sense to throw the dice and save $ on a milsurp, or spend a little extra and get one that you can visually inspect and not have to worry about the cosmo. Any opinions? (I'm in the "prospective Mosin buyer category" as well)
ohgrady
Member
Pileatus,
When I was looking for my first Mosin, the local/regional gun shops that had them wanted $125 to $135 (or more) for rifles that were still sticky with cosmoline. So with sales tax a local Mosin was going to run me around $140.00. I found Mosins online at gunbroker for about $65 to $70, so with shipping and transfer fee I had an arsenal refinished Mosin for a little over $100.00. I guess it's a matter of what you're comfortable with - either way, my vote is that you need to get one for yourself for Christmas! When you finally get it to the range, the smile on your face and the pain in your shoulder are priceless.
When I was looking for my first Mosin, the local/regional gun shops that had them wanted $125 to $135 (or more) for rifles that were still sticky with cosmoline. So with sales tax a local Mosin was going to run me around $140.00. I found Mosins online at gunbroker for about $65 to $70, so with shipping and transfer fee I had an arsenal refinished Mosin for a little over $100.00. I guess it's a matter of what you're comfortable with - either way, my vote is that you need to get one for yourself for Christmas! When you finally get it to the range, the smile on your face and the pain in your shoulder are priceless.
wgaynor
Member
Good gosh man! That is alot of Mosins...I am thinking that either you are not married, or your wife is an amazing woman...I actually forget how many I have
Off hand, I think the current tally is 16 of various flavors. I stopped collecting Mosins around 6 years ago, when I got distracted by filling out my US collection (darn that CMP...)
Russian M91s x 2
M91/30 x 5
M91/30 sniper x 1
Finnish M91s x 2 (including a Westinghouse)
Finnish M39s x 3
M38 x 1
M44s x 3 (Russia, Poland, Hungary)
Type 53 x 1 (China)
MD_Willington
Member
M91/30 = big grin
M44 / M38 = bigger grin + nice shoulder bruise + gigantor ball of flame at muzzle
M44 / M38 = bigger grin + nice shoulder bruise + gigantor ball of flame at muzzle
Cosmoline
Member
Don't worry about the cosmoline on the steel. It comes off fine with nothing more complex than near-boiling water. It basically melts off. Then you quickly dry the steel wearing your oven mitts and oil it down to avoid oxidation. Done in more times than I can remember.
The problem comes when the cosmo gets into untreated WOOD GRAIN. Thankfully most Soviet Mosins had a thick layer of shellac laid down prior to storage, and this protects the grain nicely. For rifles stowed with untreated stocks, you can take years getting all the cosmo to leach out.
AFAIK the most potent of all the 30 cal/ 8mm rifle rounds of WWII was the 8x56R. The S Patronne loads deliver over 3,200 ft. lbs. at the muzzle and my shoulder can personally attest to their brutality out of the small Steyr-Mannlicher straight pull carbine.
http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/8x56r/surp.html
Second would likely be the 8x57JS, followed by the 54R, the 30'06 and so on. Obviously the '06 has the capacity to beat all of them but our military loads were well under maximum capacity. Don't ask me why, I've never been able to figure it out. Why design an extra long cartridge then neglect to fill it up?
The problem comes when the cosmo gets into untreated WOOD GRAIN. Thankfully most Soviet Mosins had a thick layer of shellac laid down prior to storage, and this protects the grain nicely. For rifles stowed with untreated stocks, you can take years getting all the cosmo to leach out.
AFAIK the most potent of all the 30 cal/ 8mm rifle rounds of WWII was the 8x56R. The S Patronne loads deliver over 3,200 ft. lbs. at the muzzle and my shoulder can personally attest to their brutality out of the small Steyr-Mannlicher straight pull carbine.
http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/8x56r/surp.html
Second would likely be the 8x57JS, followed by the 54R, the 30'06 and so on. Obviously the '06 has the capacity to beat all of them but our military loads were well under maximum capacity. Don't ask me why, I've never been able to figure it out. Why design an extra long cartridge then neglect to fill it up?
Ditchtiger
Member
Is the Mosin supply running low?
At a gunshow yesterday, aways looking for my next Mosin and found just 4.
One ChiCom M53 $175
Two 91/30's, rough looking no blueing $150
One M39, $375
There were no M44's or M38's
440rnd. spam cans go for $130
At a gunshow yesterday, aways looking for my next Mosin and found just 4.
One ChiCom M53 $175
Two 91/30's, rough looking no blueing $150
One M39, $375
There were no M44's or M38's
440rnd. spam cans go for $130
I bought my first Mosin from J&G Sales for $79.95 +17.00 shipping + 16.00 FFL transfer fee, so it wound up being around $112.00 total for a 1930 Tula hex receiver, rearsenaled. But I was unable to get in touch with the guy who had that $16.00 FFL fee, and anyone else I could find seems to be charging at least $25.00. So...with that in mind, I wound up buying a 1938 Tula round receiver yesterday for $129.00 at a gun show. It is in pretty good shape and has matching serial numbers on everything, so I am OK with that.
But if I ever find I have uncontrollable "Mosinitis" I guess I will HAVE to get my C&R license...the savings are simply too great to not take advantage of them.
But if I ever find I have uncontrollable "Mosinitis" I guess I will HAVE to get my C&R license...the savings are simply too great to not take advantage of them.
chuckusaret
member
I have just gone thru several cases, 20 weapons per case, and the weapons bores all appeared to be in about the same condition. I was very fortunate to have bought two from a private owner and he allowed me to pick the weapons from a case with all hex receivers. I would not buy a weapon that has a counter bored barrel. Until the cosmoline is removed it is rather hard to tell the condition of the barrel. The Cosmoline is no problem, disassemble the weapon and soak all metal parts in a cleaning solvent, brush, soak, brush, soak and blow dry. Use Hoppe’s 9 in the bore and chamber with bore brush/cloths. Then clean and oil as normal. On your first two or three range outings fire 5 rounds and run a brush down the bore several times while the weapon is hot, go thru this 3 or 4 times after each five rounds. After any range visit with your M N and if corrosive ammo is used clean bore with hot soapy water and then clean as normal with bore cleaner/oil etc. I presently have a 1930 and a 1936 91/30 hex receiver rifles with all matching SN's and in the works of obtaining a M38 and a M44. I have had as many as 5 91/30’s at one time and will continue to collect them. It is called the Mosin Nagant disease .
A great Mosin Nagant site to visit: 7.62x54r.net/
Pileatus
Member
I think I will call AIM surplus tomorrow and ask them what they have for inventory. I think you can pay $10 extra for a hand-selected rifle, and if you ask they will send you one with no counterbore. There was a Remington MN on the used rack at Cabelas for $1000 (no, that third zero isn't a typo)...a nice piece of history, but way outside my budget! Thanks to all who answered my questions about the dreaded cosmo and bore condition...I think I might just have to get myself an early Hannukah present, and since it's winter here all the time (Maine) the extra padding from my jacket will cushion the blow to the shoulder a bit!
History related question...were the MNs ever involved in battles on the Western front as well as the Eastern front? I read somewhere that in addition to Remington making the Mosins for a bit, they were given to the British expeditionary forces as primary weapons. I'm no WWII expert so I could be bass-ackwards on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mosin Nagants found their way into the battles at Bastogne and the Allied push through Europe following D-Day. Where are the military history people at?
History related question...were the MNs ever involved in battles on the Western front as well as the Eastern front? I read somewhere that in addition to Remington making the Mosins for a bit, they were given to the British expeditionary forces as primary weapons. I'm no WWII expert so I could be bass-ackwards on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mosin Nagants found their way into the battles at Bastogne and the Allied push through Europe following D-Day. Where are the military history people at?
Last edited:
dirtyjim
Member
i have a few mosins that will stay as they were but i also like to tinker and i like wierd rifles so i've started collecting a few mosins to build into sporters & target rifles or butcher as the wacko collectors say.
this one started out as a hungarian m44 with a shot out barrel. i relocated the bolt handle to the rear then filled in the gap in the rear bridge.
it has a 7.62X54r barrel from a czech Uk59 heavy machine gun. i still need to turn the center section to a straigh taper to the muzzle but it will work as it is for now. its .950" at the muzzle & 1.170" right behind the boss in the center off the barrel. the barrel is 24" long too. its headspaced & the extractor slot is done. i need to butcher a stock for it & put the scope mounts back on it so i can test it out. i'll make my own stock by reshaping & modding an original stock then have it duplicated with a laminate blank.
i sent these two barrels out to be threaded for a mosin. the shorter one is a finned 7mm barrel from a madsen light machine gun. it will be chambered in 7mmx54r. i have a 6.5 vostock reamer so i'll just put a 7mm pilot bushing on it to cut the chamber then buy a 7mm neck & throat reamer to finish it.
the other barrel is from a russian maxim heavy machine gun. both of these barrels will be put on hex receivers.
i'm also going to build a couple of rifles in 6.5 vostok. one with a heavy target barrel & one with a sporter weight barrel done in the pre-WWI british style
this one started out as a hungarian m44 with a shot out barrel. i relocated the bolt handle to the rear then filled in the gap in the rear bridge.
it has a 7.62X54r barrel from a czech Uk59 heavy machine gun. i still need to turn the center section to a straigh taper to the muzzle but it will work as it is for now. its .950" at the muzzle & 1.170" right behind the boss in the center off the barrel. the barrel is 24" long too. its headspaced & the extractor slot is done. i need to butcher a stock for it & put the scope mounts back on it so i can test it out. i'll make my own stock by reshaping & modding an original stock then have it duplicated with a laminate blank.
i sent these two barrels out to be threaded for a mosin. the shorter one is a finned 7mm barrel from a madsen light machine gun. it will be chambered in 7mmx54r. i have a 6.5 vostock reamer so i'll just put a 7mm pilot bushing on it to cut the chamber then buy a 7mm neck & throat reamer to finish it.
the other barrel is from a russian maxim heavy machine gun. both of these barrels will be put on hex receivers.
i'm also going to build a couple of rifles in 6.5 vostok. one with a heavy target barrel & one with a sporter weight barrel done in the pre-WWI british style
MachIVshooter
Member
Not just those three. The 7.7x58mm Arisaka, 7.5x55 Swiss, 7.5x54 MAS, 8x56 Hungarian, 8x63 Swede, 8x59 Breda, and so on. Only the .303 british, 7.35 Carcano, 6.5 Carcano and 6.5 Arisaka stood as weaklings on the WWII battlefield.
Ex-MA Hole
Member
I have one- it's a remington branded one...pretty accurate and a hoot to shoot....
slamfirev10
Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2009
- Messages
- 210
chuckusaret, (and others)
i think i know, but what is "bad" about a counter bored barrel
thanks
i think i know, but what is "bad" about a counter bored barrel
thanks
Cosmoline
Member
Dirtyjim--I'll be interested to see what kind of accuracy you can get from those ultra heavy barrels. It's an interesting project.
Harley Man
Member
I had a Mosin and wanted to obtain the look of the era, so I put a PU scope on it. Simple cool looking scope. I think it just makes the weapon look awsome, and the 7.62x54 round will drop just about anything within the US. If you want to see a cool flick with some Mosin's in it watch "Enemy at the Gates".
Harley Man
Harley Man
- Status
