Mousegun tactics

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Good article, and good advice. I wonder if putting the mousegun back in your pocket after the shooting is a good idea, tho. You now have a concealed weapon on you after a shooting. If someone does remember who shot, it could get uncomfortable. Would it be better to put the gun on the ground, near the dead BG, and step back a step or two?
 
If the mousegun is in the pocket to begin with, I'm thinking that the user better have a valid CWP. If that IS the case, I would pocket the gun again.

I can't, for the life of me, think of any good reason to put the gun on the ground until instructed to do so by the police. I would, however, unload it, IF I am absolutely sure that the danger is passed.

<><Peace
 
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If you have your gun out when the police arrive you are a man with a gun and theirs will be pointed at you. I it's back concleaed it's "Officer, I shot at a man trying to do me harm. My gun is in my pocket"
 
Gun Control

Yes, good gun control means keeping the gun under your control, so put it back in your pocket. Out of sight is out of mind. No one will be afraid of the gun they can no longer see. On the other hand, many bystanders will be freaked out simply by the sight of your gun, so put it away. Also, some idiot might want to pick it up, if you put it down. Nope, if you have a ccw permit, put it back in your pocket. If you don't have a ccw permit, you are in hot water, for sure.
 
I guess that my Kahr PM9 doesn't qualify as a "mouse gun" since even though it fits in my pocket it weighs 16.7 oz empty (the article writer uses 16 oz as the limit).

Maybe with that extra weight it qualifies as a "rat gun"?
 
good post

though for a lot of reasons i feel 3 yards is too close to begin a draw.
by the time the BG sees the gun he will be to close to you to shear off.
you would be lucky to get off 1 shot before you two get physical--and he is on you with 2 hands while you only have 1. i know you are pumping bullets into him with your other hand, but until he runs out of steam he is putting a world of hurt on you...or worse if he has a knife.
every situation will have differences but i make strong eye contact at 20+ feet if something about another sets me to wondering. and even at that distance, if he moves on you, you would get off 1, maybe 2 shots before he was on you.
BG's dont like people who wont break eye contact. they think that they are either another BG or carrying ( LEO)
those who believe 'staring' may escalate the situation as in "whatcha looken at', well, he was trouble, or looking for it, anyways.
 
Mousegun tactics

Get close... Shot alot... reload. Continue same.

Website listed in OP said:
7 Pray silently for God to guide and bless - I'm not kidding.
Click to expand...

Amen
 
Kahr PM9 weight

There are various "weights" for the PM9 floating around on the internet. This review on the Kahr website says the PM9 weights 15.9 ounces.

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1B/review_ch_0902.html

I saw another review that said 14 ounces. Others say 16.7 ounces.

Whatever!!! It is so small and light, I happily classify it as a mousegun. Wish I had my very own PM9 to put on my scales!
 
Then go get one! I have one and love it! Pocket carry it every day. Very reliable and accurate for such a small "hard hitter". I love having 7 9mm+p rounds over 8 .380 rounds in a smaller and MUCH lighter package than my Walther PPK/s which only sees range time these days. Never carried anymore since getting a P3AT w/ +1 mag extension and the PM9. Barely even carry the P3AT anymore, either. It was a major bitch to get it reliable, but I pretty much got it there. Still not too confidence inspiring, though.
 
I really don't see anything especially relevant to mouseguns in particular, compared to any pistol.

Maybe it'd be safer to define a mousegun as any pistol.
 
Overpenetration?
You are worried about overpenetration with 9mm and .45 acp ball ammo out of mouseguns? What .45 in a 16 oz gun or less has sufficient barrel length to produce the velocity required for overpenetration? For that matter, what 9mm? Since you defined "mousegun" by weight empty, I would guess you could define overpenetration by X depth in gel tests. What depth would that be?

A mousegun is not suitable for engaging bad guys at long distance. Mouseguns are weapons of last resort, meant to be used really close up and personal. The purpose of a mousegun is simply to give you an edge - a chance to get out with your life. Sights are rudimentary, and mouseguns are not tack drivers. They are not range guns. They are designed to be "shot little and carried often," not the other way around. If you are under pressure, and are armed with a mousegun, you will do amazingly well to hit a man-sized target at three yards. Fast, excited shooting at over three yards is very iffy.
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Since you mentioned the Kahr PM9 by name above, I would beg to differ wholeheartedly on this notion of range. I am not particularly proficient with it, but 25 yards certainly isn't a stretch for a human-sized target, nor are head shots at 15 yards. I just don't see where you are making a connection between gun weight and engagement distance. That makes no sense. And yes you are making this connection because you are defining the mousegun by weight and then saying it is too limited for distance shooting and claiming what its purpose is. Hell, hitting beyond 3 yards with my NAA mini revolver isn't terribly hard either.

Mouseguns are not suitable for firefights. If you are armed with only a mousegun, you do NOT run towards the gunfire. Mouseguns are strictly for personal defense.
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Once again, what does gun weight have to do with application? Lightweight guns definitely can and do get used in firefights. I would see NO PROBLEM with using the PM9 in this manner at all. You may not be comfortable shooting beyond 3 yards with a mousegun, but that is your limitation, not the limitation of the guns. The same holds for their application in a firefight or whether or not you run to the sound of gunfire.

Remember this: THE BEST USE OF A MOUSEGUN IS NOT TO HAVE TO USE IT AT ALL. When I say to use it only as a last resort, I mean it! Use it ONLY when you have NO OTHER OPTION AT ALL.
Click to expand...

As noted above, some of your statements are general gun statements. Be it a mousegun or regular carry gun, the best use isn't to not to have to use it at all. That is just plain silly. The best use it to use it to save your life. The next best use is to have it available in case you need to use it to save your life. As with any other gun, it is what you use when you have no othe options.
 
Thank you for your comments

Thanks for your comments. I have thought about some of them, and made some additions and changes, to improve the article. Mostly about how we civilian gun carriers differ from LEOs in our response and responsibility.
 
Again, I don't see why so called "mouse guns" need a different set of instructions than regular guns...

Advice I have heard is "shoot them in the eye", "... in the temple", "... up the nose", "... in the neck".

All of that advice is hinky, IMO. A mouse gun, let us say is a gun that has a:

- 2" or smaller
- 8 round or less mag
- .22 - 32 caliber

I myself carry a Lorcin .25 auto when I walk the dog around my neighborhood. In fact, I have noticed that little Lorcin seems to always be around, even when I am carrying something else. If I had to use the gun in a self defense shooting I would

Draw and fire
Seek cover
Fire from cover
reload
Evaluate / engage / retreat / continue fire as needed at this stage.

That is solid tactics for any gun and to a greater or lesser degree is taught at every academy in US.

"Mouse" guns are guns that have a tremendous utility in the world of concealed carry. They can be easily hidden in the least amount of clothing when compared to just about anything else.

We have established that the .22 can kill just about any animal known with proper shot placement. Knowing that, how can any gun be considered not applicable for SandD????

There is a difference between the knockdown power of a 9mm and a .25 no question. But when it is 105 in Houston with a heat index of 120, you honestly will have a very difficult time carrying much else....
 
Since you mentioned the Kahr PM9 by name above, I would beg to differ wholeheartedly on this notion of range.

Myself and another tested the PM9 for effective "range", the results are reported here:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693

see posts 15, 18, 19, and particularly post 30.

excerpts worth mentioning:

Stepped off something a little over 50+ yards from the plates. Slow standing unsupported sighted fire with a two hand hold, we both could get one and sometimes two to ring the steel out of 6 rd mag but no more through several attempts. This was too far to consider reliably using this gun for both of us.

Stepped up to something a little over 40+ yards. Same stance as above with two hand hold. We could both get two shots out of six from several mags. Still too far to be reliably capable of taking on BG's at that distance.

a little over 25+ yards. Same stance as above with two hand hold. We could both get three and sometimes 4 shots out of six from several mags.

20 yards. Same stance as above with two hand hold. We could both get 4-5 rds and sometimes 6 shots out of six from several mags. This about as far as both of us can put most of them COM on a man and it is real slow sighted fire to do so.

15 yards. Same stance as above with two hand hold. We could both get 6 consecutive rds reliably on the plates and the speed of shots on threat was not bad at this point. Jim and I both agreed this is the furthest he and I can reliably and realisitically use the pistol defensively in a gun battle.

15 yds with the pm9 is a stretch but very easily accomplished if the fight determines that range has to be dealt with. Thats twice as far as I normally train students in the courses. It's not a front pocket gun for me, but it's a pocket gun when it's sitting in the back pocket of my jeans.

The shooter has to be up to the task. Some won't have the same abilities at the distances above and some might have better skills at various distances. Testing the limits of any carry gun and understanding exactly what you can do and can't do with that weapon, on demand, is most important whether it's a mouser or full size fighting gun. Something JMusic and I are very fond of with any gun we plan to carry.

Edited to add:

My Walther PPK/s[ another mouse gun as it will also sit in my back pocket often ] has an effective killing range [ COM on a BG ] of 40+ yds with 3 rds a second unsupported offhand.

Overall, I liked the main premise and thought process of your article. Well thought out IMO.

Brownie
 
I honestly don't think of most .380's and 9mm's as mouse guns unless they are derringers or something like that.
 
In your article you mentioned:

I define a "mousegun" as a handgun that weighs less than 16 ounces empty, and/or will fit easily in a front pants pocket.

The ppk weighs 20 ounces, so it's over on your cirteria, but it fits in a front pants pocket of the jeans just fine.

The Kahr PM9 and the Ruger LCP (.380acp), or a Seecamp .380 also seem to me to be fine pocketable mouseguns.

A mousegun is not suitable for engaging bad guys at long distance. Mouseguns are weapons of last resort, meant to be used really close up and personal. The purpose of a mousegun is simply to give you an edge - a chance to get out with your life. Sights are rudimentary, and mouseguns are not tack drivers.

My Kahr PM9 weighs just 16 ounces, and fits in the front pocket, so it does meet your criteria above in your article and it can be fired accurately and with speed at longer ranges out to 45 feet. Thats much further than a mousegun should be used for, but shows some mousers are very capable of SD at more than just bad breath distances.

My Walther ppk/s can do 40+ yds with extreme accuracy, at least as accurate as my glock 26 or 19 if I do my part, which isn't that difficult with some practice.

The Kahr PM9 and Walther ppk and ppk/s are carried as they are concealable pocket mousers and both can extend the ranges of accurate SD fire out to quite some distance when required, and are not just belly blasters like the Seecamp or Kel-tec 32/380's.

In other words, you can have the best of both worlds with the two mousers I have mentioned. Pocket concealable, light enough to carry everyday, even in the 118 degree temps of the summer out here, and capable of being used effectively at quite a bit more range than one would expect from a mouser.

Brownie
 
I'll pitch in and say mouse guns are ones you would rather not have and are apprehensive to use for a shoot out past 20ft. The PPk's, Sig 230's are better than the PM9's in accuracy but I would put them in the J Frame goup as far as distance is concerned.

I agreee overall with Marshal3's article. Keep in mind though if you are in decent shape you're better off hittin them with a brick.:D


Jim
 
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