Here's a question. To train for self defense, is it better to train with point shooting? I've come to wonder this a lot, since I read somewhere that most encouters happen at a very short distance, is it reasonable to practice point shooting? Also, are laser grips useful for point shooting?
Mouseguns, point shooting or sight shooting?
- Thread starter Yohan
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No.
Just point shooting a mouser will probably result in your never being able to hit anything tighter than a 15" group at 10-15 feet because you'll never train your muscles to know where the gun is pointing when you pull the trigger.
If you train to make precision shots at 50 feet, which is what I do with my P-32, you'll force yourself to hold the gun in a way that aligns your eyes with the muzzle. Then when you resort to point shooting you'll be very likely to get 5" groups at SD ranges.
You may not have time to aim a mouser in SD situations, but you always have time to grip it properly.
My favorite P-32 shot is between the eyes of a silhouette target at 50'. It takes time and concentration, but it's a great training shot as well as being good for showing off....
Just point shooting a mouser will probably result in your never being able to hit anything tighter than a 15" group at 10-15 feet because you'll never train your muscles to know where the gun is pointing when you pull the trigger.
If you train to make precision shots at 50 feet, which is what I do with my P-32, you'll force yourself to hold the gun in a way that aligns your eyes with the muzzle. Then when you resort to point shooting you'll be very likely to get 5" groups at SD ranges.
You may not have time to aim a mouser in SD situations, but you always have time to grip it properly.
My favorite P-32 shot is between the eyes of a silhouette target at 50'. It takes time and concentration, but it's a great training shot as well as being good for showing off....
Redlg155
Member
Aimed shooting is how I do all my shooting, whether mousegun or full sized weapon. Of course it can be a bit of a challenge due to the typical mouseguns poor quality or lack of sights.
If you are shooting two to the chest with no effect then you need to shoot to the head. Kinda hard to hit with just point shooting.
Some folks say that mouseguns are "belly guns". If I let you get that close I'm in a world of hurt because a mouse gun isn't going to get you off of me in time.
Good Shooting
RED
If you are shooting two to the chest with no effect then you need to shoot to the head. Kinda hard to hit with just point shooting.
Some folks say that mouseguns are "belly guns". If I let you get that close I'm in a world of hurt because a mouse gun isn't going to get you off of me in time.
Good Shooting
RED
Not only that, Red, but the perp in the San Antonio 4 cops v 1 felon wasn't dead after taking 6 shots from a .40 S&W. Fat chance my P-32 would have at bringing down a perp from belly shots. They may be fatal, eventually, but I'm far more interested in instant stops. That, IMO, requires head shots from anything I carry much less a mouser.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
I reckon point shooting is worth some practice but ..... not at the expence of ''normal'' sighted shooting.
I find when practicing that with my normal crouched Weaver type stance . which I do automatically after 20 plus years .. that even if sight aquisition has to be rushed .. for which read ''non existent'' ....... I can still keep my group tight enough to matter at around 40 to 50 feet ..... point shooting at real close .... say 10 feet, can be made to work adequately.
Of course .. another major item is finding cover as a priority if possible ... then at least much more chance of the aimed shot. Plus - who knows in the end quite how things'll shape up when we have to face that one in a million ''show down''?!
I find when practicing that with my normal crouched Weaver type stance . which I do automatically after 20 plus years .. that even if sight aquisition has to be rushed .. for which read ''non existent'' ....... I can still keep my group tight enough to matter at around 40 to 50 feet ..... point shooting at real close .... say 10 feet, can be made to work adequately.
Of course .. another major item is finding cover as a priority if possible ... then at least much more chance of the aimed shot. Plus - who knows in the end quite how things'll shape up when we have to face that one in a million ''show down''?!
Coltdriver
Member
If you read up on the old OSS studies of how humans react in a life threatening encounter you will find that three instinctive things occur.
One of the instinctive things that occurs is an inability to remove your eyes from your threat.
You will also find that one of the other instinctive things that occurs is that you will automatically square to your threat.
Finally you will crouch slightly in preparation for running. Its almost an automatic prepare to duck reaction.
These are automatic, instinctive reactions.
These things make point shooting a very practical thing to learn and to learn well.
Unless you are a well trained LEO who is in a threat environment daily (and carrying a heightened sense of awareness) your ability to remain cool and calm is greatly diminished in a true life threatening situation. A police officer may absolutely be in a position to have to think and "work" over a sighted perp. Sights make for precise work in these instances.
For most of us civilians, to think that you will actually take aim and draw a bead may not be an accurate notion. Most encounters fall into the three feet/three shots/three seconds category.
I would never say any kind of practice is bad, but if a true life threatening person were 50 feet from me I would run like hell.
I practice only point shooting and no sight shooting and have done so for about seven years now. I know that I can reliably hit COM, head, shoulder or hip if that is what I want to hit. I have learned to do it with a j frame or a .45
What ultimately matters is the first actual hit. It should be where you want it to be and it should be quick. If you find you can not get a sight bead because you are scared witless then the best sights available are useless. If you can't get a bead because it is too dark you may have trained for the wrong thing.
Just my two cents worth, your mileage may vary. I have always thought sights to be over rated.
One of the instinctive things that occurs is an inability to remove your eyes from your threat.
You will also find that one of the other instinctive things that occurs is that you will automatically square to your threat.
Finally you will crouch slightly in preparation for running. Its almost an automatic prepare to duck reaction.
These are automatic, instinctive reactions.
These things make point shooting a very practical thing to learn and to learn well.
Unless you are a well trained LEO who is in a threat environment daily (and carrying a heightened sense of awareness) your ability to remain cool and calm is greatly diminished in a true life threatening situation. A police officer may absolutely be in a position to have to think and "work" over a sighted perp. Sights make for precise work in these instances.
For most of us civilians, to think that you will actually take aim and draw a bead may not be an accurate notion. Most encounters fall into the three feet/three shots/three seconds category.
I would never say any kind of practice is bad, but if a true life threatening person were 50 feet from me I would run like hell.
I practice only point shooting and no sight shooting and have done so for about seven years now. I know that I can reliably hit COM, head, shoulder or hip if that is what I want to hit. I have learned to do it with a j frame or a .45
What ultimately matters is the first actual hit. It should be where you want it to be and it should be quick. If you find you can not get a sight bead because you are scared witless then the best sights available are useless. If you can't get a bead because it is too dark you may have trained for the wrong thing.
Just my two cents worth, your mileage may vary. I have always thought sights to be over rated.
I practice both with my P-32 but I think the point shooting would be more usefull. If I am in a situation where I can't hit the BG by point shooting, I am probably too far for my little .32 to be of much help.
I wouldn't use such a gun except in the most grave need. It is a totaly defensive pistol (and a close range one at that). That being said, I have been impressed with the accuracy of my P-32 when I am target shooting. I have been able to consistantly role a pop can at about 10-12m. That is not bad because I have some full size service type pistols that I can't shoot this well.
I wouldn't use such a gun except in the most grave need. It is a totaly defensive pistol (and a close range one at that). That being said, I have been impressed with the accuracy of my P-32 when I am target shooting. I have been able to consistantly role a pop can at about 10-12m. That is not bad because I have some full size service type pistols that I can't shoot this well.
tbeb
Member
I think it's better to use your front sights. That's why I feel all guns should have useable sights. Just squeeze the trigger as soon as front sight is on target. You'll be amazed at how fast you can empty your gun and hit what you're aiming at.
However I do occassionally practice point shooting at very close range. I'm pretty good at it with my double action .22 derringer.
However I do occassionally practice point shooting at very close range. I'm pretty good at it with my double action .22 derringer.
sanchezero
Member
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BOTH.
It's just shooting.
It's just shooting.
10-Ring
Member
Point shooting at very close distances.
Big Al
Member
This might sound corny, but the easiest way I've found to consistently make head shots at reasonable SD distances with my P32 is to cover up the target with the back of the slide and blast away. It doesn't yield super-tight groups, but at 10 yards I can put all 8 rounds in the head of a shilouette target rapid-fire. I guess it would be classified as point shooting.
denfoote
Member
Depends.
On my P32 it's point shoot!! That's the only way I can hit anything!!
Now with the MK9, it's different. Sighted shooting!!
On my P32 it's point shoot!! That's the only way I can hit anything!!
Now with the MK9, it's different. Sighted shooting!!
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My mousegun (Beretta 21) was a backup (carried in holster that hung on vest straps). It would have been strictly a point & shoot affair.
BTW, I did try aimed fire at a range and it delivered respectable results at mouse gun distances. The Beretta would only come into play if I was in danger of losing my primary (or lost it during a struggle) and if it was indeed a struggle, the assailant would have been close enough to hit anyway.
BTW, I did try aimed fire at a range and it delivered respectable results at mouse gun distances. The Beretta would only come into play if I was in danger of losing my primary (or lost it during a struggle) and if it was indeed a struggle, the assailant would have been close enough to hit anyway.
sm
member
Front sight-Press.
Same draw, grip* presentation on everything, full, compact, mouse size gun. I want the muscle memory to be there when in a situation. Instructor has me shoot without any sights sometimes, but I still "imagine" sights. Also taught to sight along side of bbl--if need arises.
*semi's thumbs up, revolvers, thumbs down only change.
Same draw, grip* presentation on everything, full, compact, mouse size gun. I want the muscle memory to be there when in a situation. Instructor has me shoot without any sights sometimes, but I still "imagine" sights. Also taught to sight along side of bbl--if need arises.
*semi's thumbs up, revolvers, thumbs down only change.
Zip06
Member
You should train to shoot both ways. Sighted fire is always preferred and if you have the distance its fine but up close its a different matter, there may be no time to aim with the sights or their may be a high probablity of losing control of the firearm.
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