Mt, Soledad update: Justice's decision suggests high court would hear case

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Desertdog

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Justice's decision suggests high court would hear case
By Greg Moran
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060708-9999-lz1n8cross.html



U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony M. Kennedy extended his temporary stay protecting the Mount Soledad cross yesterday until state and federal courts can hear appeals this fall by the city of San Diego to preserve the landmark.

In blocking a federal judge's order that the city remove the cross by Aug. 1 or face a $5,000 daily fine, Kennedy indicated that the full court would review the case if it were to come before the court.

Kennedy said the court, which refused three years ago to get involved in the dispute, may consider it because of two new factors favorable to cross proponents.

He cited legislation to designate the city-owned land a national veterans memorial and a ballot initiative in which San Diegans overwhelmingly voted to transfer the land to the federal government.

Kennedy's move is a big boost for cross supporters and the city in their efforts to preserve the La Jolla landmark, which is part of a veterans memorial.

The cross was ordered removed in 1991 by U.S. District Court Judge Gordon Thompson Jr. in San Diego federal court. Thompson said the cross was a religious symbol whose presence violated the state Constitution's ban on a government showing a preference for religion.

Mayor Jerry Sanders welcomed Kennedy's opinion at a news conference, recalling his oft-stated promise to do everything possible to retain the cross.



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“Today is validation that this was the right course of action,” he said.
James McElroy, the lawyer for Vietnam War veteran and atheist Phillip Paulson, who sued in 1989 to remove the cross, said he was surprised and disappointed.

“I certainly understand the court's logic, but I disagree with it,” he said.

In May, Judge Thompson gave the city until Aug. 1 to take down the cross or face the daily fine.

The city appealed the deadline order, seeking to block it while it appealed the case in state and federal courts. On Monday, Kennedy issued a temporary order that froze action until he ruled again.

That ruling came late yesterday afternoon. City Attorney Michael Aguirre said it was unusual in that the high court rarely intervenes when a case is still pending before a lower appeals court. Also, releasing an opinion outlining the reasoning is uncommon.

In the four-page opinion, Kennedy said that the two appeals should be allowed to go forward, since their outcomes could determine the fate of the cross. He also emphasized the importance of congressional legislation in 2004 that designated the site as a national war memorial.

That move came after the case had been appealed to the federal courts,including the Supreme Court, which in 2003 declined to hear the case. Kennedy said the effect of that legislation on the case “has yet to be considered.”

Moreover, Kennedy wrote that the legislation showing Congress' interest in preserving the memorial “makes it substantially more likely that four justices will agree to review the case” even if the city loses on appeal in federal court.

That bolstered the spirits of Phil Thalheimer, leader of a citizens group that is fighting to preserve the cross.

“It's a strong indicator that no matter how the (federal appeals court) rules, the Supreme Court will take this case,” he said.

Cross supporters, who have had years of setbacks in state and federal courts, believe they have a very good chance of winning if the case gets to the high court.

Charles LiMandri, a lawyer for Thalheimer's group, said that the court might see the case as an opportunity to redirect the law on church-state separation.

But Kennedy also left the door open to dissolving the stay, writing that “if circumstances change significantly, the parties may apply to this court for reconsideration.”

McElroy said he interpreted that to mean that if he wins in the appeals courts, Kennedy would be willing to lift his order blocking removal.

The cross battle is advancing on two legal fronts.

The city has an October hearing before the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals to argue that Thompson abused his discretion when in May he moved to enforce his 1991 ruling ordering removal of the cross. The city is arguing that was wrong because it was trying to comply with the order via Proposition A.

That proposition, passed last fall by 76 percent of voters, would hand the land over to the federal government, meaning the cross would no longer violate the state constitution.

But Superior Court Judge Patricia Yim Cowett also ruled against cross supporters, finding that the measure violated the California Constitution because it showed a preference for religion and amounted to aiding a religion.

The city has appealed that ruling to the state's 4th District Court of Appeal.

If that court upholds Cowett, the city will ask the state Supreme Court to review the matter.

Either way, Kennedy's order clearly shows that he wants the appeals processes in the state courts to fully resolve the issue, said Aguirre, who called that “a very significant legal development.”

Aguirre said Kennedy noted that if the state appeals court reverses Cowett – and allows the transfer to the federal government to go ahead – it could render Thompson's order to remove the cross moot.

The state appeals court in San Diego has placed that appeal on a fast track, meaning the case will likely be heard in the next couple of months. That appeal now becomes a crucial hearing in the long-running battle, both sides agreed.



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Greg Moran: (619) 542-4586; [email protected]
 
Transferring it to the federal government doesn't make the cross any less unconstitutional. I mean, how hard is it to sell the damned thing to private ownership? I'm sure there are plenty of churches that would buy it at fair value.
 
No, transfering it to the federal government doesn't change the constitutional status of the cross one bit. It does, however, take advantage of the fact that the federal courts are far more inclined to enforce constitutional restrictions on the states, than they are on the federal government, which can generally get away with violating the Constitution as it sees fit.

I agree that a transfer to private hands would be better, but that runs into two obstacles. The first is that a lot of people in government operate on the rule that once something is owned by the government, it can never pass back into private ownership. It's obnoxious, but that's how they think. They just don't believe land ought to be privately owned.

And the second is, IIRC, that there's some legal precident against being able to escape rulings such as these by transfers to private ownership. At least, that's how I recall some of the Christmas display cases going.
 
As I said in my post to the last thread about this, with all due respect, you are all way off base, and know little of the case. I lived on Soledad Mountain Road, down the street from the memorial, and now I live on the next ridge south and can see the thing from my bedroom with a telescope. I've also followed the case over the years.

Transferring it to the federal government doesn't make the cross any less unconstitutional.

That's not true. The plaintiff took this to court because it violates the California State constitution. It does not violate the Federal Constitution, as it has been repeatedly interpreted by judges all over the political map. There is a large body of precedent that says that such monuments are not a 1st Amendment violation. Therefore, your statement is not true. That's the crux of the case; without this fact, the case would never have gone forward at all.

Neither side disputes the fact that this cross violates the State Constitution, simply because it is a cross. (No one has really addressed what we will do with other religious symbols, from many different religions, of historic, cultural and diplomatic significance, in San Diego and elsewhere, and there are many, but that is not part of the case and shouldn't be.)

I mean, how hard is it to sell the damned thing to private ownership? I'm sure there are plenty of churches that would buy it at fair value.

It was easy. We did that. But after the city did that, the courts voided the sale. Why do you assume that everyone but you is an idiot?

No, transfering it to the federal government doesn't change the constitutional status of the cross one bit. It does, however, take advantage of the fact that the federal courts are far more inclined to enforce constitutional restrictions on the states, than they are on the federal government, which can generally get away with violating the Constitution as it sees fit.

That statement is false. The State Constitution in California has specific language that prohibits religious symbols on public land, no matter what their purpose. It dates back to the origins of the state as a Catholic missionary outpost, and the desire to specifically secularize it. The Federal Constitution does not have this language.

The Federal Supreme Court has wrangled with this issue several times, and there are pretty specific guidelines regarding such things. IMO, the court has done a reasonably good job of balancing the preservation of historical structures and memorials with what can be reasonably interpreted as government professions of religion. Neither extreme side is satisfied; to me that suggests that the Court probably DID find a middle ground between the various factors.

Understand: on the one extreme, we have the government destroying all important historical structures on public land, that happen to have some religious significance or symbolism (e.g. the Taliban destroying the Buddhas), and on the other extreme, we have an official religion, and the government building churches with tax money (e.g. the Church of England, AFAIK). I think we can all agree that neither extreme is desirable, even if we disagree about exactly what the best resolution is.

I agree that a transfer to private hands would be better, but that runs into two obstacles. The first is that a lot of people in government operate on the rule that once something is owned by the government, it can never pass back into private ownership. It's obnoxious, but that's how they think. They just don't believe land ought to be privately owned.

Again, the city already did this. The court voided the sale (not a giveaway, a sale, to a private veteran's memorial foundation.) We don't have the anti-private-ownership culture here that the two large cities to the north do. We're a "red" city in a "blue" state.

This memorial was built in the memory of the fallen of the "forgotten war" in Korea, in 1954. At the time, no one thought of the cross as anything but a fitting monument. It was not built for proseletyzing, or by a church.

Before going off, consider that this actually IS a complex case, and that maybe the world isn't just full of a bunch of fundies who want a state-enforced religion. That's really NOT what this is about. Strong support for keeping the memorial, from local Jewish and Buddhist clergy, helps demonstrate that.
 
One more thing...

I'd be more than happy if SCOTUS heard the case.

We here in San Diego want this thing settled. This has cost too much money and caused too much strife, and every uninformed legal maven from across the country seems to have an opinion about it, too.

No matter what the final outcome, we will be better off. As it stands, we've been between a rock and a hard place.

If the city removes the cross without a fight, we set the precedent that anyone with a personal axe to grind and nothing better to do, joined with a lawyer who wants publicity, can tell us what to do with our public land, because the city won't engage in a court battle.

Forget the cross. What happens when every local sports team or other special interest uses the courts to get their way with city land? I have some things I'd like, myself, e.g. relaxing our "no playing fetch in a large empty park" law. Hell, if the city had buckled under the first time around, I'd get some people together, and we could make a lot of city land our own private playground (kind of like what the Sierra Club tries to do on a national level).

If the city fights it (as it has), though, we spend a lot of money, and for what, really? The city (Enron by the Sea, according to a Wall Street Journal article) has enough financial woes as it is.

At least a SCOTUS ruling could end this for good, and save some other taxpayers some money in the future. A lower court ruling, or a settlement, wouldn't do this.
 
It was easy. We did that. But after the city did that, the courts voided the sale. Why do you assume that everyone but you is an idiot?

Woah, Bear, chill out. It's not like I'm a warpath or anything. I'm just pointing out an obvious way out of the situation: Sell it to a private agency or a private group.
 
It was easy. We did that. But after the city did that, the courts voided the sale. Why do you assume that everyone but you is an idiot?
It is plain to see that it is simply a war against the cross and any other symbol that can be related to Christianity. The Islam Crest is OK. The Menorah is OK. The Aztec Gods are OK The Cross and Nativity is NOT OK.

What is Separation of Church and State Extremism?
http://www.mindspring.com/~careyb/rf_extm.html
 
ArmedBear said:
I'd be more than happy if SCOTUS heard the case.

We here in San Diego want this thing settled. This has cost too much money and caused too much strife, and every uninformed legal maven from across the country seems to have an opinion about it, too.

No matter what the final outcome, we will be better off. As it stands, we've been between a rock and a hard place.

Hard to say if Supreme Court is ready for this... in my opinion it is far more complex than a Cross on public land.. While I recognize that Supreme Court Justice Kennedy extended his temporary stay hearing the case is far more involvement... you see... this case is more pervasive than the Mount Soledad cross... how about the name of California's biggest city: City of Angels? God's name on our coinage?

What this case is about is the ACLU overstepping its mandate and politically-correct psychos forcing secularism on the masses... it seems like Mayor Jerry Sanders should have told the secular psychos to go jump in a lake and stayed with that determination...
 
Sell it to a private agency or a private group.

That's why it's winding it's way up the court system. That's what the case is really about.

Again, San Diego sold the land, and the court then ruled, after the fact, that it could not sell the land to solve the problem, and voided the sale.

That is exactly what the court blocked, and that is exactly why the city is fighting this.
 
WRT to the sale, what the Court ruled (the judge is a Republican appointee, and quite conservative, BTW) was that the City improperly gave preferential consideration to bidders who would preserve the cross. In other words, it wasn't simply a "highest bidder" process, it was a "highest bidder who will keep the cross" process.

Jerry Panders is trying desparately to stir up support among San Diego's large Evangelical community, because he's figured out that the City's real probelms aren't going to be solved by any of his "nobody suffers" so-called "solutions." When you've got an electorate that won't tolerate any reduction in services or any tax increases, being Mayor kinda sucks. Especialy when your predecessors decided to give half a billion dollars to a private, for-profit enterprise, and cooked the books to pay for it. Oh, and they also sold bayfront land worth hundreds of millions of dollars to a real estate developer for $1. Yes, you read that right.

--Shannon
 
WRT to the sale, what the Court ruled (the judge is a Republican appointee, and quite conservative, BTW) was that the City improperly gave preferential consideration to bidders who would preserve the cross. In other words, it wasn't simply a "highest bidder" process, it was a "highest bidder who will keep the cross" process.

...which would be the normal state of affairs for any such land transfer, and which was approved by an overwhelming number of voters here...

The highest bidder would have been a condo or McMansion developer. The city wanted to sell it to someone who was willing to maintain the park/memorial as-is, which includes keeping the cross there.

While one can argue about the case on either side, and I respect that, the very notion of selling to the highest bidder without encumbering the land is unrealistic. That's now one of the most valuable pieces of land in California, on the open market.

Jerry Sanders, much as I think he can be a slimebucket, didn't exactly CREATE this problem. Furthermore, if "pandering" to the electorate by trying to do what 76% of us voted for is somehow wrong, then the alternative is to govern by personal whim.

Personally, I'd be more than happy with a reduction in services, with massive layoff starting with management, and the termination of SANDAG funding among other things, but not a tax increase. Sorry. I'd much prefer the city to go bankrupt.
 
...which would be the normal state of affairs for any such land transfer, and which was approved by an overwhelming number of voters here...

The highest bidder would have been a condo or McMansion developer. The city wanted to sell it to someone who was willing to maintain the park/memorial as-is, which includes keeping the cross there.

Right, that's what the city, and it's voters, wanted. They hoped that by selling the land to a private concern, the legal issues would go away. The judge ruled that, unless the bidding were thrown wide open, in which case, as you say, McMillan or Shea or someone would likely end up with it, the process still violated the CA state Constitution by giving preferential treatment to religion. Now, I bet Dobson and Robertson and all the rest could have outbid the developers, but that would cost real money. Lawyers, especially por bono ones, are cheap by comparison. I don't know if the ruling indicated that a preference towards keeping the memorial, with or without the cross, would have been legal, but I think that's the case.

Jerry Sanders, much as I think he can be a slimebucket, didn't exactly CREATE this problem. Furthermore, if "pandering" to the electorate by trying to do what 76% of us voted for is somehow wrong, then the alternative is to govern by personal whim.

Again, I agree that Sanders hasn't created the problem. I do think that his decision to fight this till the last match has burned out is purely political, and is calculated to distract voters from the real issues facing the city. The cross simply isn't one of them, at least from where I sit. Had he said "We lost, we keep losing, and we can't afford it anymore," I'd have given him credit for cojones, if nothing else. From what I've seen of him, however, it looks like he's got one less than Lance Armstrong.

Personally, I'd be more than happy with a reduction in services, with massive layoff starting with management, and the termination of SANDAG funding among other things, but not a tax increase. Sorry. I'd much prefer the city to go bankrupt.

Here, we disagree, but for the same reasons. I want government services, and I'm willing to pay for them. You don't want to pay, and are willing to do without. It's the fact that most San Diegans want both that has put us where we are. Add in the unholy influence of the BIA and the rest of the piglets sucking off the CCDC teat, and you've got a mess that I can't begin to figure out how to solve. I'd be in favor of bankruptcy, except that I'm convinced that the only people who would really benefit are the same crew that's been getting fat off the current system. If San Diego isn't the most corrupt city in the West, it's in the top 5. The only difference I see between here and Clear Lake (where I used to live) is that, up there, the graft is right out where everyone can see it.

--Shannon
 
preferential treatment to religion. Now, I bet Dobson and Robertson and all the rest

Actually, the city gave preferential treatment to a non-religious veteran's group that would keep the cross where it stands and has been standing. That's a bit different. The reason it's a bit different is that there is plenty of precedent for the city even giving money to private non-church foundations (e.g. historical society) maintaining similar monuments (e.g., the cross on the hill by the Presidio museum).

I want government services, and I'm willing to pay for them.

Actually, you are willing to vote to force me to pay for them. If you wanted services and wanted to pay for them, you'd just pay for them.

There's a huge difference between, say, raising fees for State Park users and raising taxes on everyone to cover what State Park users benefit from.

The real alternative offered by Sanders' opponent, Donna (don't surf) Frye, was a general tax increase, to pay for the triplet ripoff schemes of public employee unions, the Padres and the CCDC, along with the extremely expensive but trendy trolley line and other money-blowing schemes dreamed up by SANDAG in their extremely expensive downtown offices.

I know a SANDAG analyst. They have some pretty creative ways of blowing as much money as possible, with the smallest result, especially when it comes to traffic relief.

The problem is, if we keep feeding the monster, it'll just get bigger. I think it's worth the suffering it would take to try to kill it. And I agree that Sanders wants the "no pain, all gain" approach."

How long you been here?
 
On and off (divorced parents and 6 years surrounded by haze grey steel) since 1979.

You know, it's easy to blame the city employee's union, the Padres, and the CCDC, but looked at another way, all of them were acting in thier own self-interest. Unions are supposed to get as much as possible for their members, that's what they're for. John Moores asked for a whole bunch of our money, and he got it. CCDC was created by a Pete "chinese food in a tree" Wilson to benefit downtown development interests, and that's what they've done. Nobody whose paid attention should be surprised by any of this. The problem has been our elected officials giving away the store while telling everybody either "it'll be fine" or "it's none of your business, butt out."

Helen Copley and her spawn cheerleading the whole way, while simultaneously lining their pockets, hasn't helped. Hopefully, there will be some high-profile perp walks in our future, we sure need them. The Valerie Stallings affair doesn't make me very optimistic, I'm afraid. Yeah, she got convicted, but the folks who bribed her weren't even charged. You want to bet they've changed their ways? I'll take good money that they haven't and won't, unless they're behind bars.

--Shannon
 
They Might Miss The Boat

You would think that government - in particular, the courts - would welcome something the people held reverence for. People who have reverence and adhere to a faith and live their lives according to a set of beliefs tend to live by the law and hold other things in reverence - like the Constitution!:scrutiny:

Oops! Shame on me. Adhereing to the Constitution is the LAST thing the courts want anyone to adhere to! Stickin' to the Constitution strips government of its usurped powers. Never mind!:eek:

Woody
 
tube_ee

You should realize, then, that, whatever money we give them, they'll do the same with it. Give them more, and there will be only more fraud and more debt.

Of course the Padres, unions, etc. act in their own self-interest. The problem is that our city government hasn't been on the city's side in the bargaining.

Perhaps you see it differently, but given your dislike of our latest mayoral experiment, I doubt it: the city has not done anything that would indicate to me that the future will look any different. I don't see much of a way out, except to begin by "starving the beast." Even that is dubious, but I have no doubt that simply tossing more money to the city will result in more bad things, not more good ones.
 
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