Supreme Court justice saves cross – for now

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Camp David,

I got the word wrong. Oops. Respecting, not regarding.

My point still stands. The 1st Amt bars laws that go along with ("respecting") establishement, but which themselves are not the actual establishement. Forced tithing would be barred although it would not establish a religion (just support it).

That said, there is a big difference between laws "respecting an establisment" and laws that "are friendly to" -- and that's what the leftists don't get.

You and I probably agree on which laws violate the 1st and which don't. You are reading the 1st more narrowly that you need to or should.

And once again -- I don't think a cross on public property rises to the level of "respecting an establishment."

Note that I've edited my initial post (#74) to use "respecting" rather than "regarding" -- my point still stands.
 
It is true that Franklin and Jefferson, although far from atheists were deists, although Jefferson swung between Deism and Christianity. George Washington was a Christian, however. At least, it is hard to reconcile his hand-written prayer book that mentions Jesus Christ a number of times, along with the testimony of family and friends that he was a Christian. "He (Washington) was a sincere believer in the Christian faith and a truly devout man" - John Marshall. Washington's adopted daughter said the same as Marshall.
 
When you read the First Amendment, please do not stop at the first comma. Stopping at the first comma leaves out the most important part of the freedom of religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
 
tcgeol:

It would be quite difficult for a Christian to reconcile their beliefs with Deism and Freemasonry. Modern "big tent" spirituality, yes. Modern "small tent" evangelism, no freakin' way.

Ask a Baptist if they think Mormons are Christians; Deism and Freemasonry are just as out there as Mormonism. If Christians are going to claim that Deists and Freemsons are Christians because they also believe in some nebulous higher power, then they should accept Scientology as well.
 
Supernaut, I won't dispute your claim about Freemasonry, because I don't know enough to do so. However, where is the solid evidence you have that he was a Deist? Using more general terms for God isn't adequate evidence, because many preachers of the time did that exact thing.
 
Desertdog: When you read the First Amendment, please do not stop at the first comma. Stopping at the first comma leaves out the most important part of the freedom of religion.
Good point! The last phrase also means that Congress is barred from more than the mere establisment -- it supports the idea that Congress is barred not only from laws that establish a religion, but which are "respecting an establishement."

Obviously, Congress also cannot stop people from displaying crosses (even on public property) under the last phrase.
 
tcgeol said:
Supernaut, I won't dispute your claim about Freemasonry, because I don't know enough to do so.

S'okay, this wacky religion stuff is kind of a hobby for me.

However, where is the solid evidence you have that he was a Deist? Using more general terms for God isn't adequate evidence, because many preachers of the time did that exact thing.

I'm not saying that Washington was a Deist, he was probably the most inconsistent in his statements of belief. I've read stuff that made him sound pretty faithful, and stuff that made him sound pretty faithless.

I'm saying that an undeniably large number of the FF's were Deists and Freemasons and that Deism and Freemasonry is not equal to being Christians. A lot of the FF's were making up stuff as they went along, bending Christianity to Enlightenment ideas. I'm really proud of the fact that our Founding Father's beliefs were just as diverse as the ideas they espoused. Trying to lock them all into a single concrete belief system does them and us a disservice IMHO.
 
cuchulainn said:
Obviously, Congress also cannot stop people from displaying crosses (even on public property) under the last phrase.

Right but why the distinction of private v. public property? Why public property protections? Does the first Amendment specifically say no religious icons on public property or is that something you assumed?

You do know that public property is an extension of private property; i.e., bought and paid for by taxpayers, don't you? Why do some say that religious icons are not allowed on public property? Where is that misunderstanding coming from?
 
It's a good thing we have a secular government, that way we don't get a "tyrany of the majority" type of situation where people effectively establish one particular religion as the official one. You know, by putting giant crosses on government land and such to show everyone who's boss. It's a good thing that's illegal. And it's a good thing we have the courts to over-rule all the mob mentality.

It's a good thing that NOWHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION is mentioned any "wall of separation" or "separation of church and state." It's a good thing that the Framers meant to protect religion FROM the state, and not the other way around, by their wording of the First Amendment. It's a good thing that there IS an amendment protecting the freedom of religion in this great nation. And it's a good thing that, in this free country, people that put up monuments are allowed to do so, and that their freedom of religious expression is not infringed upon by irreligious libertines trying to secularize America, and trying to pretend it was intended to be secular.
 
Okay, thanks, SuperNaut, I thought that you were claiming that Washington was a Deist. Thanks for clearing that up:)

I'm saying that an undeniably large number of the FF's were Deists and Freemasons
I do disagree with this. Some undeniably were including Jefferson, Franklin, Ethan Allen, Paine, among others. But, the majority considered themselves Christian. Whether their beliefs were totally what is considered orthodox is hard to tell, but the majority were not Deists. Look at the quotes from the FF after The Age of Reason came out. That was a quinessential Deistic work, and almost all of the FF strongly repudiated it.
 
Phetro said:
It's a good thing that NOWHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION is mentioned any "wall of separation" or "separation of church and state."

There are other documents and texts that support the Constitution, 14a for example.;)
 
tcgeol said:
I do disagree with this. Some undeniably were including Jefferson, Franklin, Ethan Allen, Paine, among others. But, the majority considered themselves Christian. Whether their beliefs were totally what is considered orthodox is hard to tell, but the majority were not Deists. Look at the quotes from the FF after The Age of Reason came out. That was a quinessential Deistic work, and almost all of the FF strongly repudiated it.

I would go even further and say that The Age of Reason and Rights of Man were proto-atheistic works. Quite radical for the time and far too incendiary to publicly endorse, they are radical for the present day. Remember that Paine fell in and out of favor on several continents. The FF's didn't hang with him because he was a lovable rogue, they hung with Paine because he challenged them.

Royally pissed them off sometimes.
 
As a (soon to be Ex-) native San Diegan, I've followed this melodrama for quite some time. Personally, I don't feel the cross really warrants the attention it has garnered. I see the cross every morning while my wife and I make our commute to work. It neither reaffirms nor attacks any beliefs of ours.
Do I feel it should be torn down? No.
I think tearing down pieces of our history is a bad habit to form.

Of course. these feelings may stem from lapsing as a card carrying religion-hating atheist. It was just so hard to get to those weekly meetings.
;)


I'd really be more interested in organizing public pressure on Kolender to start issuing some CCWs, than arguing over that cross.


Just my 2 cents,
B.
 
George Washington was a Christian, however. At least, it is hard to reconcile his hand-written prayer book that mentions Jesus Christ a number of times, along with the testimony of family and friends that he was a Christian.

Nothing to reconcile. The "prayer book" was not written by Washington.
 
Nothing to reconcile. The "prayer book" was not written by Washington

What evidence do you have to back this up? Also, how do you explain the claims of family and friends (including many of the FF) that he was, in fact, a Christian? As was mentioned above, quotes can be so easily taken out of context as to be almost meaningless, but I am much more inclined to trust their words than others more recent.
 
The Atheist, believing only in the power of man, sees the destruction and prohibition of the symbols of deity worship as a sign of the strength of the religion of Atheism or Humanism. The absence of religious symbols is not a neutral position; it is a position favoring the atheistic belief.

I don't get where that thought process comes from other than the convenience to make a sweeping generalization from imagination in order to satisfy oneself. I don't recall any Atheist Inquisitions or Atheist Crusades. Atheist beliefs are almost -always- self-arrived/realized by an individual or small group of people that ponder theological and philosophical subjects. There is no overwhelming global body of Atheists at the Vatican lead by a heirchy of Atheists that determine things like what shoes would Atheists wear or what holidays they should concoct. In fact, Atheism has many sub-beliefs and varying degrees of extremity in and of itself, just as any religious, political, economic, or major belief system that guides the various cogs running the world. A reasonable introductory article can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist

As such, you would find it impossible to back up such an argument that Atheism as a whole (since is is fragmented and isolated by socialogical and demographic environment) is somehow out to erradicate theistic symbols as a prime directive of a governing or structured belief system, since there is no structure, period. There are no Sunday Atheist gatherings or Atheist dogma. There are some groups (mainly on the Internet) that might host small rallies or gatherings of Atheists for whatever reason it is they do (barbeques and t-shirt ideas perhaps) but nowhere near the magnitude of established theistic groups. Atheists do not follow proselytized theistic dogma and scripture engrained since early childhood that (in the case of Abrahamic-based religions) states their [belief] is the only way and that it is your job or tenant to convert others and push them into conformity (and historically, that included fear, torture, death, and genocide of indiginous natives).

I never stated that Atheism was a structured, hierarchical organization, with defined goals and methods of concerted actions. One could compare Atheist to Locusts; locusts share a common attribute with locusts of various types, no matter where they may be found. The locust will eat every plant in it's path, and keep eating until it dies; swarms of locusts will completely strip plant life from entire regions, and cause famine in the affected area. The locust swarm has no hierarchy, no command structure; there is an inherent common goal, that needs no structure or communication to coordinate actions by other members of the group. Similarly, the atheist has a common attribute; the disbelief in any deity, whatever religion's deity is under consideration. As one locust may be more voracious than another, one atheist may be more militant than another in trying to force his influence on those that profess faith in deity. Just as you can know that a swarm of locusts have been in an area by observing the consumption of vegetation, you can observe that atheists have been in an area by observing the forced destruction of religious symbols in public venues. The absence of the removal of religious symbols does not indicate the absence of atheists; it means that the atheists' influence is negligible at that time and location.

I would say such a statement is a complete lack of logical thought. If the Constitution of government were to favor Atheism using the illogical statement reposted above, it would erect a statue that would somehow represent the disbelief and dismissal of all theistic beliefs. However, that is not the case. It simply leaves a blank slate. Our Constitution is written in a way that it is secular and allows the expression of non-religion or religion. Absence of religious symbols favors no particular religion or lack thereof. The absence of religion isn't the evidence of favoring the belief in no religion. Important: note how that is worded.

The forced REMOVAL of religious symbols is certainly evidence that one religion (Atheism) is being favored over others. If the religious symbols had never been allowed at all, it might be argued that neutrality was being exercised; in the case of removing symbols of historical and traditional value, SOLELY on the basis that they represent one particular religious belief, it is impossible to see anything other than an ANTI-RELIGIOUS (and thus atheistic) use of government power, which clearly violates the First Amendment. In order to NOT violate the first amendment, it requires that the historical and traditional symbols remain, and equal opportunity to display the views of the Atheist are allowed as well. If the Atheists can not afford to erect their own opposing viewpoint as individuals, there is no hindrance by the government, on the formation of a structured organization of atheists, raising funds to do so.

Absence of religion from an establishment does not mean the belief in no religion, which would be Atheism. The absence of religion does not favor any theistic beliefs, and it does not favor the lack of theistic beliefs either. It is such a simple concept that I find it hard to believe, from my viewpoint, why it is such difficult to grasp. Given any other topic or word besides religion, it would make crystal clear sense. The absence of a firearm from someone's home does not mean that they believe no one should own a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. Yet, it does not favor rifles, pistols, or shotguns. That homestead favors neither freedom from firearms, or any particular type of firearm. It is quite simply, (and elegantly) neutral. As far as the Constitution goes, do people honestly think so little of our Founding Fathers to think that, while drafting up the most important document of our nation, forget to insert numerous situations or lexicon involving God/god/Goddess/goddess/gods/goddesses/smorgasboard of deities into the US Consitution, but they really, really meant to...but it was too late since everyone already signed it?

If no symbols of religious nature had ever been allowed, the absence would show no favor of one religion over any other; that is not the case in question - we are discussing the FORCED REMOVAL of religious symbols, by opposing religious practitioners, using government power to effect the removal. The question is whether the Courts forcing the removal of religious symbols, is equivalent to "no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The other point that needs to be made is that the Constitutional prohibition is placed on actions by the CONGRESS; it says nothing about the COURTS becoming involved in matters of religion. Does that mean that the Court has the power to force each and every person to worship according to mandated religious ideology; of course it doesn’t - so why is Congress allowing Courts to continue this exercise of abuse of authority? Why is it that we have seen no action by Congress to limit the authority of the Court in this matter, as is the right and responsibility placed on Congress in the Constitution.

The idea that I expressed concerning the destruction and prohibition of the symbols of deity worship as a sign of the strength of the religion of Atheism, relates to the analogous idea of Military Forces capturing territory in battle; the first thing they do is remover the Flags and other identification of the enemy. It is a clear statement that they have the strength and the power to take that territory, and to hold that territory against counterattack.

What we are observing is the skirmishing at local levels, of an undeclared war on the basis of religious ideology, just as we are observing skirmishes between Jew and Muslim, and between Muslim and Christian, in various parts of the world. Those skirmishes in our country are using Courts instead of bullets and bombs.
 
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