Gatofeo
Member
The below was just posted by me as a reply in another thread. Then I realized that perhaps it's worthy of a separate thread, as a point of discussion.
Forgive me if I break rules by posting the same thing twice.
I had a brass-framed 1851 Navy in .44 caliber back in the 1970s. Inexpensive and not well made, but it gave me the basics.
I experienced multiple ignition (chain-fire, whatever you want to call it) three times with that revolver. The last event damaged it so much that I scrapped it.
But I learned some things, I guess.
I am not one of those who believes that multiple ignitions start at the front of the cylinder, because the flame somehow gets around a seated ball. Well, I should qualify this -- I don't believe this is the cause in nearly every instance of multiple ignition.
Granted, old or poorly made guns with chambers that are elliptical in shape will not seal well with a ball. There will be a gap where the chamber is out of round, allowing in flame.
How does a chamber get out of round? It begins at the factory, where either the cylinder slips in its chuck or the boring tool slips a bit. This out-of-round may not be noticeable to the naked eye.
However, you can check for it by seating well-oversized balls into each of the empty chambers. Now, remove the nipple and shine a strong penlight through the hole that the nipple came from, while peering around the edges of the ball from the front. Doing this in the dark helps.
If the chamber is out of round (or frankly, if the ball is too small) you'll see a sliver of light between the ball and chamber wall.
No light = good seal.
Actually, I am far more convinced that multiple ignitions begin at the rear of the cylinder. Have a buddy fire a cap and ball at night, wear total facial protection, and closely watch the area at the rear of the cylinder.
You'll be amazed at the amount of flame generated in this area, not only from the cap being fired but the pressure of the main charge squirting back through the tiny hole in the nipple.
The size of this hole determines how much flame and pressure squirt back through.
Incidentally, this incomplete sealing arrangement -- wherein the pressure of the hammer and its spring against the copper "gasket" of the percussion cap keeps even more flame from squirting back through the nipple's channel -- is one of the major reasons why you should never load any amount of smokeless powder in a cap and ball revolver.
Smokeless powder generates much higher pressures than black powder, or black powder substitutes.
Load enough smokeless powder and you can "squirt" the entire nipple out the back of the chamber, stripping its threads, and get a faceful of hot gases and metal fragments!
Cartridges, which hold their primer tightly (even considering, when a cartridge is fired, the primer backs out and then the case slams back and reseats the primer) seal much better against the higher pressures of smokeless powder.
I believe there are multiple scenarios that create chain ignition at the rear of the cylinder:
1. The cap of a loaded cylinder is jarred off the nipple, allowing flame to reach down the nipple channel of an adjacent loaded chamber and ignite the charge.
2. The cap is loose on the nipple, allowing flame to access the charge.
3. The cap falls off, unseen, during handling. While some say that a proper nipple and cap size will cure this, I believe it isn't a complete cure.
I squeeze each cap into a slight elliptical shape, so it clings better to the nipple when installed. This practice, when coupled with a proper-sized cap and nipple, is just a little extra insurance.
I wish manufacturers would wake up and begin offering caps that are already slightly elliptical. They may not feed well through a capper, but it would sure be handy at the range!
Does multiple ignition begin at the front of the chamber? Nah, I haven't believed that for years.
Of course, an elliptical chamber that prevents a ball from sealing well can cause it.
The late gun writer, Elmer Keith, wrote about original cap and ball revolvers in his classic book, Sixguns. He warned that some of the old guns had chambers rusted through between the chamber walls.
I can believe it. I've seen some original black powder cartridge revolvers with chamber walls that were thin as paper clip wire, so I can well believe that some cap and ball sixguns -- especially cheap imitations of the Colt, largely from Belgium -- had very thin chamber walls.
To ignite from the front, a spurt of flame must get past a tightly seated, oversized ball that clings to the chamber wall, as well as a greased felt wad.
This is one of the reasons why I am a strong proponent of the greased felt wad between ball and powder: it creates yet another obstacle.
Lubricant over the ball may help, but the first few shots blow much of that lubricant out of the other chambers. Whether there remains enough lubricant to prevent a mutliple ignition from the front (in the worst case scenario of an elliptical chamber and undersized ball) remains arguable.
Commercial felt wads such as Ox-Yoke, containing a dry lubricant, are not as effective in keeping fouling soft as a greased wad. I doubt they are as effective in preventing multiple ignition from the front, in the worst case scenario above.
Does multiple ignition stem from the front or rear of the cylinder? What are its causes?
I believe that in nearly all instances -- barring an out-of-round chamber or undersized ball -- multiple ignition begins at the rear, around the caps and nipples.
Discussions?
Daisies?
Disagreements?
Damnations?
Forgive me if I break rules by posting the same thing twice.
I had a brass-framed 1851 Navy in .44 caliber back in the 1970s. Inexpensive and not well made, but it gave me the basics.
I experienced multiple ignition (chain-fire, whatever you want to call it) three times with that revolver. The last event damaged it so much that I scrapped it.
But I learned some things, I guess.
I am not one of those who believes that multiple ignitions start at the front of the cylinder, because the flame somehow gets around a seated ball. Well, I should qualify this -- I don't believe this is the cause in nearly every instance of multiple ignition.
Granted, old or poorly made guns with chambers that are elliptical in shape will not seal well with a ball. There will be a gap where the chamber is out of round, allowing in flame.
How does a chamber get out of round? It begins at the factory, where either the cylinder slips in its chuck or the boring tool slips a bit. This out-of-round may not be noticeable to the naked eye.
However, you can check for it by seating well-oversized balls into each of the empty chambers. Now, remove the nipple and shine a strong penlight through the hole that the nipple came from, while peering around the edges of the ball from the front. Doing this in the dark helps.
If the chamber is out of round (or frankly, if the ball is too small) you'll see a sliver of light between the ball and chamber wall.
No light = good seal.
Actually, I am far more convinced that multiple ignitions begin at the rear of the cylinder. Have a buddy fire a cap and ball at night, wear total facial protection, and closely watch the area at the rear of the cylinder.
You'll be amazed at the amount of flame generated in this area, not only from the cap being fired but the pressure of the main charge squirting back through the tiny hole in the nipple.
The size of this hole determines how much flame and pressure squirt back through.
Incidentally, this incomplete sealing arrangement -- wherein the pressure of the hammer and its spring against the copper "gasket" of the percussion cap keeps even more flame from squirting back through the nipple's channel -- is one of the major reasons why you should never load any amount of smokeless powder in a cap and ball revolver.
Smokeless powder generates much higher pressures than black powder, or black powder substitutes.
Load enough smokeless powder and you can "squirt" the entire nipple out the back of the chamber, stripping its threads, and get a faceful of hot gases and metal fragments!
Cartridges, which hold their primer tightly (even considering, when a cartridge is fired, the primer backs out and then the case slams back and reseats the primer) seal much better against the higher pressures of smokeless powder.
I believe there are multiple scenarios that create chain ignition at the rear of the cylinder:
1. The cap of a loaded cylinder is jarred off the nipple, allowing flame to reach down the nipple channel of an adjacent loaded chamber and ignite the charge.
2. The cap is loose on the nipple, allowing flame to access the charge.
3. The cap falls off, unseen, during handling. While some say that a proper nipple and cap size will cure this, I believe it isn't a complete cure.
I squeeze each cap into a slight elliptical shape, so it clings better to the nipple when installed. This practice, when coupled with a proper-sized cap and nipple, is just a little extra insurance.
I wish manufacturers would wake up and begin offering caps that are already slightly elliptical. They may not feed well through a capper, but it would sure be handy at the range!
Does multiple ignition begin at the front of the chamber? Nah, I haven't believed that for years.
Of course, an elliptical chamber that prevents a ball from sealing well can cause it.
The late gun writer, Elmer Keith, wrote about original cap and ball revolvers in his classic book, Sixguns. He warned that some of the old guns had chambers rusted through between the chamber walls.
I can believe it. I've seen some original black powder cartridge revolvers with chamber walls that were thin as paper clip wire, so I can well believe that some cap and ball sixguns -- especially cheap imitations of the Colt, largely from Belgium -- had very thin chamber walls.
To ignite from the front, a spurt of flame must get past a tightly seated, oversized ball that clings to the chamber wall, as well as a greased felt wad.
This is one of the reasons why I am a strong proponent of the greased felt wad between ball and powder: it creates yet another obstacle.
Lubricant over the ball may help, but the first few shots blow much of that lubricant out of the other chambers. Whether there remains enough lubricant to prevent a mutliple ignition from the front (in the worst case scenario of an elliptical chamber and undersized ball) remains arguable.
Commercial felt wads such as Ox-Yoke, containing a dry lubricant, are not as effective in keeping fouling soft as a greased wad. I doubt they are as effective in preventing multiple ignition from the front, in the worst case scenario above.
Does multiple ignition stem from the front or rear of the cylinder? What are its causes?
I believe that in nearly all instances -- barring an out-of-round chamber or undersized ball -- multiple ignition begins at the rear, around the caps and nipples.
Discussions?
Daisies?
Disagreements?
Damnations?
