Muzzleloader problems !!! HELP PLEASE!!!

[Countryguy1982]

Here in ga small game opens next month ,u can hunt small game with a muzzleloader and that means a month of pig hunting with a smokepole before bow season opens. well about a month ago i Run up on a sweet Deal on a 54 cal Stainless Remington 700 muzzleloader. nice and clean , looked brand new. Bore was fantastic, breach plug was clean .I thought hmmm 54 cal. That orta punch a big hole through a hog so i bought it. of course it was number 11 primers ( i always hated the delay with them) so i bought a conversion kit and installed it to 209. Bought me some TC mag and hornady SST loads for it , some Jim shockey gold and began to shoot. OMG at 50 yards Groups were $*#(!($ awful I am talking like 7 to 10 inch groups and very inconsistent. 1 shot would be 7 inch high, the next 7 inch low , the next 7 in to the right etc. Both the T/C and sst did it. I tried going from about 130 grains of powder down to 100 grains. ( didn't help) i cant remember what grain the 2 loads are but they seemed like they were bout 25 grains apart. i was ready to wrap the gun around a tree.!!! or make a nice stainless/synthetic fence post out of it. Then i seen a advertisement for the powerbelts, and so , i thought hell , y not, gun isn't shooting now, at worst i am just going to be out another $20 if they dont work. Well they helped , I am now at about a 3 inch group at 50 yrds. still 3 inches at 50 yards , isnt all that good to me. My 45 cal Cva kodiak and 50 cal cva wolf , do that good at 100 yrds. could some of you black powder boys help a brother out and give me some advice to what i could do to tighten the groups down some? have any of you experienced this problem?

 

[sdhunter]

i know the feeling, i hate knocking other peoples gear but the first thing i would do i get rid of jim shockey powder, jim shockey and pioneer are the weakest bp substitute out there, i would try triple seven and pyrodex rs granular. triple seven is hotter than real black powder by about 20 percent per volume but i have found it to shoot very well out of a tc omega, this omega likes about 85 grns of triple 7 with a 245 grn powerbelt and could pull off 2inch groups at 100 yards but i sold it and went to traditional muzzleloading lol.

 

[Busyhands94]

Triple Seven is really good stuff. it's really hot too!

 

[4v50 Gary]

Agree that you should try different powders including Holy Black.

I'm no expert on inlines, but are you using sabots that fit? It sounds like your bullets are rattling down the bore worse than an old smoothbore musket.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Do the piggies offend you?? I am teasing you a bit..., sorry,...., but the max load for that rifle according the manual is 120 grains with either the sabot or a conical, with the bottom end being 90 grains.

Consider this, would you feel under-gunned if you were allowed to hunt pigs with a .45-70? If the answer is "no", then using a 300-400 grain projectile launched by a 90 grain charge of black powder or pyrodex (they only list those two propellants in the manual ) would be the equivalent, of a .45-90 in impact energy.

So I'd suggest you reduce your loads to 70 grains of pyrodex..., and work up to 90 and see if that doesn't help. Quite frankly I think that the bottom of the scale at 90 grains is a bit "stout" but they make the rifle, and they test the rifle, and they have an interest in the rifle being accurate.

Also, I know they have open sights, but my experience with inlines is that to really get good accuracy you need a scope, or at least a good quality, after market, peep sight. The Remington stock, open, rifle sights are some of the better ones on the market on a modern cartridge gun, but in this case you still are dealing with ML velocities and trajectories, even with sabots (their manual shows only about a 160 fps advantage when using sabots over conicals). So I'd think about a scope.

Finally, Remington recommends a wad between the powder and the projectile. That might be something else to try.

LD

 

[zimmerstutzen]

A 54 has a very limited selection of bullets available. Not like the 50's available near everwhere. The fit of the bullet into the bore is quite critical. With a big bullet like thhat you don't need more than 70 or 80 grains to knock a deer down.


A buddy of mine bought a 58 cal muzzleloader and was given a box of 54 balls with it and couldn't understand why he could not shoot groups less than 8 inches at 50 yds. I was amazed that he did that well. There is probably something simple that you are missing. Try to link up with someone that has years of experience with muzzleloaders for a range session. It could be as simple as inconsistent seating techniques. BTW, I have no problem shooting winning targets with a side lock perc and No 11 caps. Never noticed a delay even with that convoluted flash channel.

 

[Legionnaire]

The improvement you are seeing with the powerbelts suggests poor fit to the barrel of your original projectiles/sabots. The 1:28 twist barrel was designed for tight fitting saboted loads; your projectile should be very snug to the bore, but not so tight as you have to hammer on it to get it down the barrel.

I'm with others who suggest losing the Shockey Gold. I personally prefer Goex 2F in my Encore 209x50; avoid powder pellets, as they can't be tuned. Mark your ram rod to make sure you are seating your charges fully and consistently every time. And wipe the barrel between shots with a patch dampened (not saturated) with a cleaning solution like T/C's #13 bore cleaner.

Again, since you were able to get down to 3-inches by changing to powerbelts, I suspect your problem is with your load rather than the gun.

 

[Countryguy1982]

haha boy let me tell you that i have had a hard time with number 11 primers. I have hunted a bunch with my TC hawken rifles in 45 and 50 cal with number 11 caps. you squeeze the trigger it felt like there was 2 seconds in between you squeezing the trigger and the gun going off. i know it probably wasn't even close to that long. Switched over to a musket primer on them and does as good as 209's now... and thanks for the advice people.... I have some GOEX granular BP and i am going to give it a try with a lil more reduced powder. Start with maybe 70 grains or so and work my way up. also the groups i am getting are with a scope ( lil 1x4 leupold) i know it aint the scope . jerked it off another gun that did fine with it. I am no gun guru by any means. but just for curiosity , why are you guys sayiing that those big projectiles 400 gr or so ,don't need more that 70 -90 grains of powder.? thats alot of lead in a gun and wouldn't it just drop like a rock at any range or not expand any with not enough energy pushing it? also on the tightness..... the tc/mags and the hornady were EXTREMELY tight. thought was going to have to take a 5 lb hammer and a piece of rebar to get it started lol. the powerbelts would bout start with my finger.... also was cleaning the gun bout every 2 shots

 

[arcticap]

I'm curious if you have ever tried out the #11 caps in your Remington .54?

Most Remington owners say that they get phenomenal accuracy loading nearly any saboted bullet or conical.
Some use the 209 conversion and some use the #11 caps.
I would change powders and maybe also the primers and sabots too.
There's also different sabots to try. Harvester makes the crushed ribbed sabots that may work better in your gun.

http://www.harvesterbullets.com/

MMP makes .54 sabots for shooting up to .50 caliber bullets in a .54:

http://www.mmpsabots.com/

If you look at the loads used to fire the fine targets in the threads below, 100 grains of 777 powder seem to be a favorite. and being .54 caliber, it would probably use more powder and not less.
And the Remington seem to shoot fine with the #11 caps too as each target notes the primer used and load.
Also, someone mentioned in both threads that some of the Remington 700ML's could use a shim in the front barrel lug to free float the barrel. However, that shouldn't cause as much of a problem that you're having but you never know what happens when a barrel heats up.

One other thought... could it be a problem with the barrel fit in the stock channel? I know I fought that one a little bit with one of my Remingtons. Is the barrel floating or does it ride in the barrel channel.

When Remington first started building the 700 the 24" version they fit the barreled action to the stock. The later version (the 26"0 were not fitted. I think they were trying for the floating thought but not did or were. I did throw a shim in the front lug pocket to lift and float the barrel to check that for sure. Once I had that I then went back and sanded the barrel channel.

1. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/344096-deep-curls-rescued-remington.html

2. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/344096-deep-curls-rescued-remington.html

Trying another scope might also make a difference since even Leupold scopes aren't infallible.

If you keep having problems, talk to the guys on the black powder forum at HuntingNet.com. They can help you figure it out. Especially such a nice new looking stainless Remington 700ML as you have.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/

 

[Countryguy1982]

well i think i got the problem solved.... i tried the goex granular.. Got great groups at 50 yards with powerbelts, the TC/hornady xtp mags and ssts were even doing good. Thats crazy sounds like it was just the jim shockey gold sticks. man thats just hard to comprehend that just a specific brand of powder was doing all that. maybe i was doing something else wrong that i am not doing now . dunno though. btw , that stuff advertises that its the cleanest burning powder out there, B.S. lol its every bit as nasty as the goex. maybe its got something to do with the pellets vs granular seating tighter , who knows, but everyone thanks for your help!

 

[Legionnaire]

I love a happy ending ...

 

[arcticap]

Well they helped , I am now at about a 3 inch group at 50 yrds. still 3 inches at 50 yards , isnt all that good to me. My 45 cal Cva kodiak and 50 cal cva wolf , do that good at 100 yrds.

I wonder if the Wolf & Kodiak can shoot into 3 inches at 100 yards when loaded with those square sticks.
To think that they would even make squares to put in a round hole...!

 

[Jaymo]

First off, feral hogs are not considered small game in GA.
Second, you can hunt feral hogs24/7/365 in GA.
The only time you are required to use small game weapons on feral hogs in GA is on WMAs during special small game hunts, and you wouldn't catch me hunting hogzilla with a rimfire.
With that exception, you can shoot hogzilla with any deer, bear, turkey, or small game firearm.
You could use that .54 cal for small game, but I wouldn't. Might not leave much to eat.

I'm glad you resolved your problem. That .54 should knock the snot out of piggies.
How's your ignition with #11s and Goex? It should be a lot better than the BP subs, as real black has a lot lower ignition temp

Bear in mind, if you're hunting in GA during ML season, you are not allowed to have any modern firearm on you while hunting.
What this means is that you need a Pedersoli 20 gauge Howdah pistol or a Ruger Old Army loaded hot, for a backup for close encounters of the porcine kind.
IIRC, you can carry a centerfire pistol while ML hunting during ML system if you are licensed to carry. In that case, I'd carry my .44 mag

 

[Countryguy1982]

thats where i hunt them is some of the local Wma's . Coopers creek , rock creek/ BlueRidge Wma and Cohutta. Been tough this year , been out for a month trying to find me some . Finding plenty of sign , just can't really find any places they are staying more than a few days at a time. Usually find a few places that they are coming and going from a select few wallows/ridges on a daily basis. Shot my Traditons 50 cal hawken syle pistol today and 45 cal T/c hawkens with the goex. The traditons is 11 . Did fine with minimal delay with the goex as long as i packed it down real tight before i run a patch/ball down it. The T/C does fine with it , But i put a musket nipple on it after i got it. i will say this about the goex granular. It is SUPER NASTY. bout 3 shots and it looks like you have rubbed a handful of potting soil down the bore. but then again i havn't seen a whole lot of powder that is very clean.I got a carry permit but i usually don't carry a sidearm. Hard for a pig to climb a tree haha. and most of those wma hogs are so skiddish around here , they will take off running like their rear end is on fire if they hear a mouse pass gas