I have no experience with shooting muzzleloaders but have always thought that it might be fun and certainly would expend my hunting season. Although I have hunted all of my life (shotgun, rifle & bow), I recently turned '65' and now have time to expore and learn more about some of the more interesting elements of the sport that my career did not allow time for me to do before. I've been researching muzzleloaders and want to eliminate any guns for consideration that don't have good reps. For example, I have read a couple of bad reviews on the CVA and Traditions brands with recommendations on Knight, NEF/H&R and Austin & Halleck. I know that you can find bad reviews on almost any brand so I want to get information from the people that hunt them not just review for a fee. Any information, advice or recommendations will be appreciated. Thanks.
Muzzleloaders
- Thread starter Finewine
- Start date
- Status
There are so many different choices it's impossible to know where to begin. Do you have a budget? Are you looking for something to hunt with or will target shooting be the primary use? Are you considering factory made or a kit? Are you willing to wait for one to be built by a custom gunbuilder? Inline, percussion cap or flintlock?
arcticap
Member
What is interesting is that the 3 brands that you mention, Knight, NEF/H&R and Austin & Halleck have stopped production. A&H parts are going to be hard to find.
Knight will be continuing their customer service for parts.
Many folks are flocking to buy the Knight Vision because it's currently on special at the Sportsman's Guide. Read the customer reviews for it.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/knight-vision-50-cal-muzzleloader.aspx?a=516644
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/sear....asp+KW+Box&s=SEARCH&a=search&k=knight+vision
The basic difference between models besides the price is the type of action that a gun has.
The Guns that you mentioned are basically very good. The A&H has a bolt action, the H&R is a break action that requires plastic primer holders, and Knight has many styles of rifles. But just like with CVA and Traditions, some Knight models are better than others.
Knight will be continuing their customer service for parts.
Many folks are flocking to buy the Knight Vision because it's currently on special at the Sportsman's Guide. Read the customer reviews for it.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/knight-vision-50-cal-muzzleloader.aspx?a=516644
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/sear....asp+KW+Box&s=SEARCH&a=search&k=knight+vision
The basic difference between models besides the price is the type of action that a gun has.
The Guns that you mentioned are basically very good. The A&H has a bolt action, the H&R is a break action that requires plastic primer holders, and Knight has many styles of rifles. But just like with CVA and Traditions, some Knight models are better than others.
DrLaw
Member
If the bad reviews about those two came from a source named or quoting one Wakeman, then just ignore it. All the main brands you see out there now, Knight (which just announced it is closing), Traditions, CVA, Savage, NEF, etc... all have good guns.
You need to choose them as you would a car. What would your use for the gun be? Target? Hunting? Grins & Giggles? There are guns that fit one purpose better than the next. What does your state say about 209 primers in a gun? Illinois last I knew did not permit them for hunting, but that might have changed, sombody can correct me. I don't know what other states would say, you'd have to check. Caliber, most are .45 or .50 nowadays, but there are other calibers, too. .32 would be a squirrel gun, .45/.50/.54 a deer/bear/ gun, etc...
Simply put, shop around, and do like you are doing here. Ask. Nobody is going to put you down for asking. Ask what is an accurate gun or load. Decide if you will be making your own lead or buying it, etc...
When you find what you like, and when you do, you will probably be hooked like the rest of us here. There is nothing quite like the smell and experience of B/P guns. Enjoy!
The Doc is out now.
You need to choose them as you would a car. What would your use for the gun be? Target? Hunting? Grins & Giggles? There are guns that fit one purpose better than the next. What does your state say about 209 primers in a gun? Illinois last I knew did not permit them for hunting, but that might have changed, sombody can correct me. I don't know what other states would say, you'd have to check. Caliber, most are .45 or .50 nowadays, but there are other calibers, too. .32 would be a squirrel gun, .45/.50/.54 a deer/bear/ gun, etc...
Simply put, shop around, and do like you are doing here. Ask. Nobody is going to put you down for asking. Ask what is an accurate gun or load. Decide if you will be making your own lead or buying it, etc...
When you find what you like, and when you do, you will probably be hooked like the rest of us here. There is nothing quite like the smell and experience of B/P guns. Enjoy!
The Doc is out now.
Thanks for all of the responses. Maybe I can narrow it down a bit:
1. Primary use - Hunting. Deer, hogs and some bigger game (elk, moose, bear)
2. Factory built. Inline.
3.209 primers are OK in the states in which I hunt.
I found the "Wakeman" reviews on line and certainly they are less than complimentary about CVA and Tradition. The ones I found suggested that these guns aren't safe but seemed to be dated several years ago. Is that still a valid assertion?
Most of the 'pro hunters' I've watched on tv series seem to be using Thompson. Can I have confidence in that brand assuming that my budget is at the moderate level?
Also, I am interested in your recommendations regarding accuracy, loads and recommended scopes.
1. Primary use - Hunting. Deer, hogs and some bigger game (elk, moose, bear)
2. Factory built. Inline.
3.209 primers are OK in the states in which I hunt.
I found the "Wakeman" reviews on line and certainly they are less than complimentary about CVA and Tradition. The ones I found suggested that these guns aren't safe but seemed to be dated several years ago. Is that still a valid assertion?
Most of the 'pro hunters' I've watched on tv series seem to be using Thompson. Can I have confidence in that brand assuming that my budget is at the moderate level?
Also, I am interested in your recommendations regarding accuracy, loads and recommended scopes.
messerist
Member
The Thompson Encore is a very fine in-line muzzle loader. You can also buy center fire and shotgun barrels for it. I have not heard anything bad about the Encore that would keep me from buying one. I find that the traditional guns are more to my liking and in that case I recommend the Great Plains Hunter by Lyman's. They come in .50 and .54 caliber and should be capable of bringing down "most" North American big game. The barrel is rifled with a 1:32 twist so one is able to shoot a wider variety of bullets.
arcticap
Member
Yes you can have confidence in the brand, but unless you find a sale, the cost to get totally outfitted with the popular TC's is "high" rather than "moderate" when all is said and done.
There's the cost of the rifle, scope, mount and all of the intial accessories and ammunition costs.
Does buying a TC offer a significant advantage worth the additional cost?
Well yes and no.
The performance of their 2 most popular muzzle loading rifles, the Omega and the Triumph are rock solid and that comes with a price for their great lifetime warranty and a U.S. made product.
But even some of the lesser competitor models that cost 50% less can and do perform just as well, although maybe not with 100% certainty.
There's always issues that lead people to pay more money to buy a TC, whether it's ergonomics, performance or reputation.
Nikon muzzle loading scopes are the most popular to use with the TC's. They seem to fit the best.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/c...sionid&redirect=true&Nty=1&cmCat=search_redir
However this new Cabela's Powderhorn scope is very close to Nikon's quality:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...967277&redirect=true&Nty=1&cmCat=search_redir
Also Talley offers many one piece scope mount options for the TC's:
http://www.talleymanufacturing.com/cgi-bin/public_controller.cgi?view=products&category_recnum=6
This Shooting Times Review is typical of the performance for the TC Triumph which some people do prefer while more people seem to chose the Omega which has been in production longer.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/tctriumph_071107/index.html
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/triumph.php
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzModernClosed.php
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CAMPBELL49T
Member
Finewine, You can learn a lot on THR. I have learned so much, that I'm Pretty good with my BP rifles, shotgun, revolver and pistols. But there is another way, I joined a muzzle loading club, I been in it about year. They all helped me. Kind of like on the job training. I have gone from not hardly hitting paper.
To in the top 15% of the shooters.. A guy named Fred ,long time BP, took me and showed how to get tight groups. By the powder load and the width of the
patch, The most of all he taught me how to adjust the sights. I bought a furnace and some lead. I have already made some balls. He wants me to come to his house next Thrusday. He is going to show me the right way. Hands on is the best way. But don't get me wrong I have learned a lot on THR and will do so in the future.
Good luck
To in the top 15% of the shooters.. A guy named Fred ,long time BP, took me and showed how to get tight groups. By the powder load and the width of the
patch, The most of all he taught me how to adjust the sights. I bought a furnace and some lead. I have already made some balls. He wants me to come to his house next Thrusday. He is going to show me the right way. Hands on is the best way. But don't get me wrong I have learned a lot on THR and will do so in the future.
Good luck
arcticap
Member
I made a mistake by using the name Encore instead of the Omega.
I have since edited my post #7 and stand by the correction.
The Encore is not as popular as the Omega and each & every Encore does not offer the same high level of performance as the Omegas generally do overall.
I say that because the Omega is a dedicated muzzle loader and there have been a higher percentage of complaints about the Encore relative to the much higher number of Omegas that have been sold. And if that's not a scientifically higher percentage of complaints, I've at least heard much more praise and many more range reports documenting the long range accuracy of the Omega.
The Omega base model is also comparatively much more affordable with those even being sold at discount prices at some Walmarts.
However the Encore may be better handling and more ergonomic to some.
Mea culpa!
I have since edited my post #7 and stand by the correction.
The Encore is not as popular as the Omega and each & every Encore does not offer the same high level of performance as the Omegas generally do overall.
I say that because the Omega is a dedicated muzzle loader and there have been a higher percentage of complaints about the Encore relative to the much higher number of Omegas that have been sold. And if that's not a scientifically higher percentage of complaints, I've at least heard much more praise and many more range reports documenting the long range accuracy of the Omega.
The Omega base model is also comparatively much more affordable with those even being sold at discount prices at some Walmarts.
However the Encore may be better handling and more ergonomic to some.
Mea culpa!
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Does anyone have experience with the Triump (Thompson)? It seems to be the newest model and has, what appear to be great features (e.g. hand removable breech plug, weather shield, etc.) and it looks like it is considerably less expensive. I just wonder about the alloy receiver. Is it too new for many to have experience with it?
arcticap
Member
Here's the THR search results for threads mentioning the Triumph.
http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=6322816
If you want more input from a larger group of dedicated inline shooters along with an extensive inline rifle database to do an indepth search, go to the black powder section of the forum below:
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/
The only real complaints about it that I recall involved getting the scope set up perfectly to the right height with the one piece mount and for the length of the scope and it's eye relief. The Triumph doesn't have open sights.
It's probably the most accurate TC right out of the box with greatest number of combinations of sabots & bullets.
Investigate it deep enough and I think that you'll find that the above characterization is regarded to be true by many Triumph owners.
http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=6322816
If you want more input from a larger group of dedicated inline shooters along with an extensive inline rifle database to do an indepth search, go to the black powder section of the forum below:
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/
The only real complaints about it that I recall involved getting the scope set up perfectly to the right height with the one piece mount and for the length of the scope and it's eye relief. The Triumph doesn't have open sights.
It's probably the most accurate TC right out of the box with greatest number of combinations of sabots & bullets.
Investigate it deep enough and I think that you'll find that the above characterization is regarded to be true by many Triumph owners.
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JamesKelly
Member
I would buy Thompson/Center.
Back in the mid-80's I was expert witness in a couple of muzzle loader suits, on behalf of the maimed shooters. I got to learn about how US muzzle loaders are made.
Thompson/Center, so far as I know, are the only ones who actually magnetic particle inspect their barrels for flaws. I personally am convinced that they indeed know what they are doing. Miight say there was a learning curve. I assure you this cannot be said of some other muzzle-loading rifle makers.
I, and a couple guys who now have trouble counting to ten, can tell you that is important.
B.S. Metallurgy Lehigh University 1973, retired metallurgist 2007. Experience in manufacturing hand and portable power tools, stainless research, gas turbines and heat resistant alloys.
Back in the mid-80's I was expert witness in a couple of muzzle loader suits, on behalf of the maimed shooters. I got to learn about how US muzzle loaders are made.
Thompson/Center, so far as I know, are the only ones who actually magnetic particle inspect their barrels for flaws. I personally am convinced that they indeed know what they are doing. Miight say there was a learning curve. I assure you this cannot be said of some other muzzle-loading rifle makers.
I, and a couple guys who now have trouble counting to ten, can tell you that is important.
B.S. Metallurgy Lehigh University 1973, retired metallurgist 2007. Experience in manufacturing hand and portable power tools, stainless research, gas turbines and heat resistant alloys.
arcticap
Member
Thank you. You're right, all of the product images of the Triumph does show that it has open sights.
Cosmoline
Member
The way I look at it, if you're going to go for a ML, go all the way and get a FLINTLOCK. Forget about the inlines and whatnot. If you're going to use something with a scope that shoots as close as possible to a modern firearm, why not just use a modern firearm. There is no substitute for the real thing. That means a rock in a vise and real black powder. Accept NO SUBSTITUTES!
They were the dominant firearm for nearly two hundred years and forged the modern world. What more do you want?
They were the dominant firearm for nearly two hundred years and forged the modern world. What more do you want?
fyrfyter43
Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2009
- Messages
- 83
AMEN!
I don't even consider those modern inlines to be muzzleloaders. Shove 2 blocks of "powder" down the barrel, along with a plastic-saboted pistol bullet, and prime it with a shotgun primer? Topped with a scope? Sounds more like a suppository gun, just loaded from the other end.
Muzzleloader hunting is supposed to be about hunting with a primitive weapon. Not scopes and plastic sabots and shotgun primers. And not about pushing out against the envelope of what a muzzleloader is (electronic ignition???) until you can't push anymore, just to extend your hunting season. Pennsylvania had it right with their flintlock-only season. If only it wasn't tacked onto the end of all the other seasons, as if it were an after-thought.
I have nothing against inlines and those that use them, but they don't belong in a muzzleloader season. They belong in the modern firearms season.
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CAMPBELL49T
Member
I would buy a Pedersoli first choice. Then TC. I have a few rifles both flint and cap. I shoot better with a cap and do alright with a flinter. Why would you want to scope a muzzle loader? Unless it is a inline, most muzzle loaders consider them modern. Of course everybody has there own idea of who makes the best rifle. That also goes with flint versa cap. In the club I'm in inlines are not used.
Good luck
Good luck
higene
Member
Muzzle loader questions
You can see from the above posts, when you ask for an opinion you will get an answer. Also as stated in different ways you have to decide what you want to do with muzzle loaders to be able to pick one.
In making your decision you might want to hang around a group of shooters that are doing stuff that interests you. That way you can add actual experience to your decision making process.
I am a traditionalist. I have found Lyman and Thompson Center to be reliable names to work with. They are available new or used and they are just plain good stuff. I have not sent any muzzleloaders back for service but Thompson Center rebuilt a 20 year old Contender for me in 1 week with no questions asked. Not everyone is that responsive in their customer service.
Good Luck and God Bless
Higene
You can see from the above posts, when you ask for an opinion you will get an answer. Also as stated in different ways you have to decide what you want to do with muzzle loaders to be able to pick one.
In making your decision you might want to hang around a group of shooters that are doing stuff that interests you. That way you can add actual experience to your decision making process.
I am a traditionalist. I have found Lyman and Thompson Center to be reliable names to work with. They are available new or used and they are just plain good stuff. I have not sent any muzzleloaders back for service but Thompson Center rebuilt a 20 year old Contender for me in 1 week with no questions asked. Not everyone is that responsive in their customer service.
Good Luck and God Bless
Higene
Thanks to all for the great responses. Ordered the Thompson Triumph Bone Collector in camo version with a Nikon muzzleloader scope. I'm getting older and time is running out so this time I'm choosing the easiest choice.....an inline model ("suppository gun, just loaded from the other end"). While I have the highest regard for the 'purist' flinters, this time I'm taking the path of quickest reward. Thanks again for all of the very knowledgable and thoughtful responses, that is what makes THR such a wonderful place.
Ratdog68
Member
If their inlines are anything like their traditional front-stuffers... can't go wrong with a T/C. Best of luck with your new toy !! Post up pix of your first critter taken with it too.
bellyup039
Member
finewine,
good post, I learned from your question.
(For me, the Wife gave me the OK to purchase a custom made Pennsylvania 50 cal flintlock for above the fireplace) Waiting for the cash to order it.
Hmmmmmmm. Still waiting....... Hmmm
good post, I learned from your question.
(For me, the Wife gave me the OK to purchase a custom made Pennsylvania 50 cal flintlock for above the fireplace) Waiting for the cash to order it.
Hmmmmmmm. Still waiting....... Hmmm
arcticap
Member
I noticed that the Sportsman's Guide had the lowest price on the Tradtions .50 Pennsyvania Rifle compared to most places.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/traditions-pennsylvania-flintlock-rifle.aspx?a=264886
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/traditions-pennsylvania-flintlock-rifle.aspx?a=264886
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