My .260 is a very expensive piece of JUNK! [Lots of pics]

[Afy]

Well bought a semi-custom .260... with a 1 in 9 barrell that wasnt shooting well. The chamber and the rifling had been messed up. So it went back to the maker... who re-barrelled it. Tested it and gave me the picture below as proof.



The group is 1.21 inches at 300 meters. Which is about .25 MOA.... should be a single hole at 100 meters then...

But you would be wrong to think that...
Using exactly the same load, cases, bullet and primer... in the same rifle.




These are some of the better groups... in a number of cases five shots wouldnt stay on the target.

Was also testing a .300 WM load today. Had only five cartidges... the topmost shot is is shot #3 where I flinched. This is out of a stock SHR 970 that is going to be rebarelled... shot bipod only.


And this is .22 lr.. with about a 10-15 mph wind @100 meters. Baraska scope and bipod shooting CCI standard with a silencer.


I would like to think it's not me....

The other major difference I am seeing is that this barrell is fouling like crazy..
This what it took to clean the barrell after 20 shots...

 

[Afy]

Oh and all the loads are identical...

139 Scenar
2.73 grams of VV N-550 i.e 42.13 grains (each load dispensed by a Lyman DPS 3)
Cross weighed on a RCBS 505... to be slightly over the mark at 42.1 grains..
COAL of 2.925 inches or 74.5 mm
CCI Bench Rest BR2 primers.

Verified using FA Calipers.

Die used Redding.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Was it shot at the factory in a vice or off bags?

 

[Afy]

The original group was supposedly shot by a bench rest shooter.

The rifle is equipped with a bipod and an inegral rear rest.


Also the rifle is heavy... it weighs in at over 19 lbs in the configuration above

 

[DRYHUMOR]

If that's a suppressor, did you try it both on and off? Did you try it not using the rear monopod? Could be they did something different than what you are doing when they shot it.

 

[Afy]

With the suppressor on it doesnt hit the target...

Tried monopod off... bipod removed... on bench and in vice..

Been down this route before with the original 1 in 9 barrel. The new barrel makes the older one look incredibly accurate...

The groups are averaging about 3 inches+++

Cant be a staibility issue either... with a 1: 8 twist...

Also if the bullets are spreading so much in 100 meters... my guess is that the reference group was shot at 5 meters or from a different rifle.

Also I cant understand the crazy levels of fouling in the barrel. Some of which also seems asymetrical... some portions of the felt pills are worse than others...

I use a VFG rod and pills, or a Parker Hale rod with patches (punch type.. the patch is not dragged back through the barrel). In conjunction to a bore guide. I do not use brushes (as reccomended by the manufacturer). For cleaner's I use Robla Solo Mil and Hoppes or Shooters Choice.

 

[plexreticle]

That really doesn't seem like a lot of fouling to me for a new barrel and I'm guessing that isn't a 300m target.

 

[Afy]

The first one supposedly is a 300 meter target.

The rest are 100 meters.

 

[plexreticle]

Right. I was referring to the first target.

You may try working up some different loads. I know the guy gave you the recipe but it just may like something different after it reached your part of the world.

 

[Afy]

My part of the world is 175 kilometers from the Manufacturer's part of the world.

I am going to the manufacturers part of the world with his recipie and shooter and would 'Love' to see the group duplicated.

Failing which I would like my money... and will return to my part of the world... and proceed to buy a Keppler, or a Salva or even a Remington 700 with a border barrell and a bedded mcmillan stock.

With the previous barrel I tried several different loads and powders. Didnt work...

If a load that the manufacturer states will work... doesnt. I am not at this stage willing to try and see if something will group under an inch.

He states I should be getting 1/4 MOA... with that load at a given range. I want to see someone shoot that... with this rifle and this load.

 

[taliv]

afy, i understand completely how annoying it can be to spend premium $ on something (or euros) and it be crap.

however, you may just need to work the bugs out of it.

do you have another rifle where you've shot sub-MOA groups? it really does take some practice of correct techniques to keep groups like that.

it could be simple stuff like having the parallax on your scope adjusted properly, or the way you seated the bullets. can you buy factory rounds for that caliber?

in any event, it sounds like it's worth teh trip over there.

good luck

 

[JFettig]

Both have someone else shoot the rifle and reduce the load a bit. He's probably using a different lot of powder and that can vary loading by as much as 2 grains to get the same velocity and pressure.

Jon

 

[kentucky_smith]

Scope and mounts?

 

[Afy]

Taliv,

I shoot sub MOA with Midas L and Midas M in .22 LR at that range.
With the .300 WM as long as I can keep the flinch out... no issues the group above even with the flinch is sub MoA.
With my .222 RM again... just need to keep the barrel temps down.
Not all the groups were shot by me. 1 was even shot by a a very experienced compititive bench rest guy. And yes even tried the only factory rounds available: 140 gr Federal Game Kings @ 3.40 Euro's a round.

Over the course of this weekend I have gone through an entire box of Lapua 139 Scenars and the better part of a can of N550.

Also shot a bunch of 123 scenars... like the previous time. Only managed not to hit the target. 140 SMK's again no go.

Left over ammo loaded previously... nothing. Zip ... zilch.. nyet...non... nada
The scope is fine.. tested on another RS-1 again... only it was a .300 WM.


Jfettig: I am willing to use his lot of powder as well. Hell I will even use his ammo... I am at the end of my paitence. Prove to me that this rifle is accurate.

Te original group was shot at Versailles... you bring the shooter and and ammo... or I can bring the ammo as well. I dont care... prove to me that this rifle will shoot under .3 MOA as the manfacturer claims. Or even 1 MOA or refund my money.

This rifle doesnt shoot groups... hell it doesnt even shoot patterns. It doesnt even manitain its inaccuracy consistently with the same ammo.

 

[Afy]

Scope and mounts have been checked...

Earlier on my SHR 970 in .300 WM and yesterday on another RS-1 in .300 WM.

No issues. The scope incedentally is a Leupold VXIII 6.5-20x50 with the varmint reticle. In this part of the world is very expensive at 1500 euro's and was selected over a Nightforce NXS (my choice) based on the reccomendation from the Manufatucrer.

 

[Poper]

AFY,

This isn't rocket science as you well know and I am probably spouting off things of which you are already well aware.
My Savage Model 12BVSS in .243 Win. will shoot 5-round groups at 100 yds. that can be covered with a dime. However, I weight-match the bullets, do the bench rester's case prep, neck size OFB, BR primers, weigh every charge and seat bullets to optimum COAL (for that rifle) with a competition seater die. A lot of muss and fuss, but I have proven to myself these steps are indeed necessary to get the consistency that prints tiny groups.

I see no obvious reason for your issues. Judging from the groups fired with your .300 WM, I would guess your shooting and loading techniques are just fine. IMHO, your idea to visit the builder and observe his shooter fire the tiny group using his recipe is the thing to do.

I hope this is helpful and I wish you the best of luck.

Poper

 

[Afy]

And brass tried:

Virgin and then neck sized.
Previously fired once or twice... full sized and then neck sized.
Bullets: Lapua: 139gr Scenar, 123 gr Scenar
Sierra: 140 MK, 120 MK, 108 MK

Powders: N550, N160, N165, N150

Powder choice is limited to VV and Tubal in this part of the world. Loads have proven very accurate in other people's .260's from the same manufaturer with 1:9 twist.

Also mine is the very first barrel ever in a 1:8 twist in .260 that he has ever done.

 

[Afy]

Poper:

I generally neck size, trim to 2.020 for Lapua bullets, and 2.025 for Sierra.
I wiegh each and every charge with the DPS3 and cross verify every 5th on a RCBS 505.
CCI BR primers.

I do not wieght the cases or bullets... since all I am looking for is > 1 inch @ 100 meters.

I check the COAL of every cartridge to the exact 2.925 or 2.924 length in this case. Any lower and the bullet gets pulled and reseated provided there isnt any deformation on the meplat. Else it becomes a fouling round. (Kinetic hammer)

I have even run numbers in QL with my case parameters to ensure that the loads are as close to Optimal Barrel Time as possible, while maintaining >90% fill factor and >98% of powder burnt in the barrel +/- 10% for lot to lot powder variation.


If for the stated .3 MOA I need to change to Forrestor dies, or what ever... if you can show me a group under 1 inch within the parameters outlined above... I will happily go ahead and buy the equipment change my reloading practises. Stop using RP and Federal brass and switch only to Lapua .243 resized and neck turned... and do a handstand after every loaded cartridge.

The way this rifle has been set up has been dictated by the manufacturer. From scope to moutnings to the flutes on the barrel. I personally would have gone with a different mount, scope, and no fluting.

 

[Poper]

AFY,
I agree with you completely. He (the mfr.) built it and says it will shoot .3 MOA groups. I, too, would want to see it in person and also see his exact loading techniques and tools so that I could duplicate his performance. IMHO, considering what you have in vested in this custom rig, this should be easy for him to do for you.

Just my opinion, but anyone that can shoot sub-moa with a .300WM would have zero issues shooting a .260 Rem. Take it back and ask the builder to "show me".

Just for ****$ & grins, weigh a box of your bullets and see how they run. I have found large variations from lot to lot of the same bullet from the same mfr. (I like to use 155gn Lapua's in my 6.5x55. - When I can get 'em.)
It's not much help, but I have similar issues and frustrations with my .260 Rem. But it's not a custom job, either.

Regards,

Poper

 

[Afy]

At this point... if he says.. .260 is crap... and you need to go to 6.5 BR or 6.5x47 Lapua or whatever...

Show me an accurate rifle... in 6.5 and I will junk all my .260 stuff...
I want an accurate 6.5 and am not going to jump on the 6 mm br or 6-6.5 bandwagon.

I do not want anything other than a 6.5 at this stage...

On the variations from lot to lot... I agree with you. There are variations.

I have just finished loading the last 20 of my stock of 139 scenars to take to the manufacturer.

I want him to check the loads.
Shoot and show me a meaningful group.

 

[NCsmitty]

I remember that you were experiencing smoking of the cases before with the old barrel, are you getting that now? Absolutely no reason to blame the round, as the 260 is a superb caliber. Do the show-me thing at the maker and see what happens. For the money invested, it should do what the first target indicated. Good luck!

NCsmitty

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Afy,

I think maybe you are biased against this rifle at this point?

Would you really be happy with it, after taking it back and having the mfr's shooter duplicate the group? Or, would you be happy to have your money back?

As far as duplicating goes, I have a PSS in .308 that I shot a five shot group I could cover with a dime, at 100 yds. I have never duplicated that group again. I was using factory match ammo at the time.

That rifle is in "retirement" at the moment, the only reason I haven't ever sold it is because I "know" what it is capable of.

 

[R.W.Dale]

That's a really really unprofessional looking test target especially in light of a $5000+ rifle. The first thing I thought of when I saw that little snippet of a test target was, "what did the rest of the target look like before they cut a piece off?"

 

[Afy]

NC: Nope... thank god. Also did a rough test using witness marks.. and approximate length. The Barrel at least is a 1 in 8... +/- .01 inches...


Dryhumor: Nope not biased at all. If this rifle can indeed produce groups around .3 MOA with the manufacturer's shooter .. not one fluke group. I will spend all of my range time to duplicate that. I will sell every other weapon I have and go for this singularly. Hell I will even buy another one.

Krochous.. I am not sure. But at this point I suspect that the shots might actually be from a different rifle, and or 5 different groups. Cant see how that can happen... given this thing doesnt even pattern consistently.


I measured some of the other groups... largest: 7 inches... smallest 3.12 inches at 100...

 

[DRYHUMOR]

I would want to be standing just behind the mfr's shooter as he tries to duplicate the group. Don't let the rifle leave your sight. Good luck.