My Walther Modell 4

[GonzoGeezer]

My Walther Modell 4 is misbehaving.

Almost every trigger pull guarantees a FTE. Some are jammed in-line while some assume the traditional stovepipe position. Different ammo doesn't help. With a new recoil spring the second round might eject successfully some of the time but never the third. Hand cycling works first time every time but I know things can be way different at operating speeds.

When the gun is fired, the spent cartridge is extracted completely from the firing chamber but does not successfully eject. Sometimes it remains in line inside the slide, sometimes the slide closes part way with the cartridge still in line and it jams in the port, sometimes the cartridge is pointing outward (stovepipe). With the old recoil spring it does it every time, with the new spring it will sometimes (but not every time) cycle twice before the FTE occurs.

Some discussion with acquaintances on another forum points to the ejector being the problem but it seems to have a pretty good shoulder.


Any ideas out there to try before I send it off to a Walther 'smith?

Thanks for reading.

 

[Jim K]

You said the magic words, "new recoil spring." It sounds to me like the recoil spring is too strong and slowing the slide down before the case hits the ejector.

Jim

 

[GonzoGeezer]

You said the magic words, "new recoil spring." It sounds to me like the recoil spring is too strong and slowing the slide down before the case hits the ejector.



Jim

Hi Jim, The problem is when I use the old recoil spring the FTEs happen every time, I got a little bit of relief early on after I put in the new recoil spring but it doesn't work reliably either. So does that mean I need to try to find a recoil spring that's even lighter than the old one that it came with?

 

[rcmodel]

Have you cleaned the chamber thoroughly with a bronze bore brush & solvent?

rc

 

[GonzoGeezer]

Have you cleaned the chamber thoroughly with a bronze bore brush & solvent?

rc

You're thinking the casing might be sticking enough to slow things down? I'm skeptical, mainly because I take great care to keep my senior citizens clean, but I will examine the chamber.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Things I'd like to see:

Feed lips on the magazine
A spent casing which hung up

Does it matter which direction the recoil spring is positioned in?


But first, even when I'm certain it's not an issue, I seriously detail clean. Almost anything dirty enough can cause this. Can't tell you how many times I charged a customer $58/hour to clean his/her gun rather than effect any repairs or warranty claims.

 

[GonzoGeezer]

Feed lips on the magazine

A spent casing which hung up



Does it matter which direction the recoil spring is positioned in?





But first, even when I'm certain it's not an issue, I seriously detail clean. Almost anything dirty enough can cause this. Can't tell you how many times I charged a customer $58/hour to clean his/her gun rather than effect any repairs or warranty claims.

The spring it came with and the replacement Wolff springs are finished the same and are the same diameter on both ends.

I had thought with the magazine lips that perhaps if the next cartridge in the magazine is up too high then it may disrupt the movement of the extracting empty cartridge such that it breaks free of the extractor before it can be pulled back to contact the ejector. Yes I know that's a real stretch but I was out of ideas when I came up with it...are you suggesting that might be what's happening? I only have one magazine for the gun but I could possibly borrow one from some of the guys I keep in touch with who also shoot the Modell 4.

I am quite conscientious about keeping my guns clean, this isn't dirt related.

Maybe a lighter recoil spring?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Okee dokee...

Something I'd try.

Chamber feed a round and fire with no mag inserted (does this have a mag safety?) and observe extraction/ejection a few times for any signs of the same failures.

 

[GonzoGeezer]

Something I'd try.



Chamber feed a round and fire with no mag inserted (does this have a mag safety?) and observe extraction/ejection a few times for any signs of the same failures.

Next available range day is Friday. I'm already planning to check out a magazine I just bought for my FN1910 so I'll take the Modell 4 long and try what you suggest.

Thanks.

 

[AoxoMoxoA]

Hey Gonzo...

There's no guarantee that the older spring wasn't also a replacement spring, and that perhaps the original is M.I.A.

Pretty much all failures of the variety you are experiencing are due to short recoil.

Your ejector looks good. The extractor is not the issue either.

Since you have two recoil springs, why not experiment with the one that is the most problematic, by incrementally shortening (trimming) from the muzzle end of the spring and seeing if less spring length (tension) leads to more reliable ejection? You should see improvement as you shorten it. Stop when you are at 100%.

If that turns out to be the case, you can continue to use the modified spring or search out a factory original.

 

[rcmodel]

Before we start clipping springs?

Maybe somebody should ask what kind of ammo you are shooting in it?

Factory ammo & brand?

Or reloads?

rc

 

[Jim K]

American factory ammo in both .32 ACP and .380 ACP (9mm Browning Kurz) is less powerful than European ammo, but there should not be enough difference to keep that Walther from functioning properly.

One thing to check that most folks don't know about. See if the end coils of those springs are the same diameter. If they are not, the small end fits onto the barrel and the larger one to the front. That is so the spring doesn't fly away when the muzzle cap is removed. (If they are the same size, both are replacements.) If the spring is on backward, the small end will cause enough friction on the barrel to slow the slide down and give the problems you are experiencing.

Jim

 

[GonzoGeezer]

I don't use US .32ACP ammo partly because I can't find any. I use factory Privi, S&B, and Fiocchi FMJ, 73gr. The malfunction occurs with all three brands.

The Model 4 uses a recoil spring sleeve so the diameter of the spring is the same on either end. This is not a PP series gun.

Hey Aox, how ya doin'? I'm gonna try the suggestion to bypass the mag. I solicited a loaner mag over on WF but no response. At $150 replacement cost I figured asking would be tilting at windmills. If the FTE continues I'll consider sacrificing a spring. Good to hear from you.

I appreciate everyone's input. Thank you all.

 

[GonzoGeezer]

I made it to the range Friday afternoon. Before leaving home I thoroughly inspected both guns I took for mechanical function and cleanliness. The first task was completed successfully: my 'new' $50 FN1910 magazine works flawlessly. What follows are the results and comments from the second task: diagnosing the possible cause(s) for the Walther Modell 4's failures to eject empty cartridges.

First off, two confessions. I mentioned before that the FTEs occurred with all three brands of ammo I have in the cabinet. I was wrong, I had not tested Fiocchi before yesterday. Second, I now believe a small subset of failures might be attributable to poor technique, aka limp-wristing. I noticed it on perhaps two occasions Friday so it's possible that it was a factor in the past.

What I did was shoot the gun one round at a time (10 rounds of each brand) without the magazine in the gun to check for proper extraction and ejection when fired; I racked the slide and loaded the round from the magazine but then removed the magazine from the gun before firing. Then I fired two of the ammo brands with full magazines (14 rounds total of each brand) and attempted firing each round in fairly rapid succession. The ammo I used was:

Privi Partisan 71 gr FMJ, rated at 129 ftlb and 902 fps
Sellier&Bellot 73 gr FMJ, rated at 176 ftlb and 1043 fps
Fiocchi 73 gr FMJ, rated at 155 ftlb and 1000 fps

The Privi failed the single-shot test practically every time. The S&B had two FTEs in 10 rounds fired, but at least one could have been from poor technique. The Fiocchi worked best of the three, with only FTE in 10 rounds fired.

I did not do the full magazine test with the Privi because of its earlier performance. I had two FTEs with the S&B and none with the Fiocchi.

So it would appear recoil is the culprit with a little operator error thrown in. Because I own quite a few .32 pistols and all have successfully cycled Privi in the past, I'm looking at the power of the recoil spring as the cause. I'm prepared to sacrifice one spring to Bubba for some dremelization, but first I'm calling Wolf to see if they have a lighter spring with the same diameter and length as their Modell 4 offering (they only market one spring for this gun). Then I'll go back and redo the testing.

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Good to hear that you're getting closer to solving it.

I have one of the pre-war Walther Model 1 .22LR combo semi auto/bolt action carbines that I decided needed a new recoil spring due to age.
Bought the replacement spring from Wolff and had to trim it down quite a bit for good function.

Hasten to add that I've always been pleased with the great product (and invaluable service they do for the 'old gun' shooters) that Wolff sells.

Just remember to 'close up' the end of the trimmed spring.

That is the cleanest Model 4 I've ever seen!

JT

 

[Jim K]

My bad on the spring. I should have looked at my own Model 4 before posting.

How is the condition of the barrel?

Jim

 

[GonzoGeezer]

How is the condition of the barrel?



Jim

Generally good. A little pitting but otherwise clean. Outside there are some wear marks, I suppose from the spring rubbing .

 

[GonzoGeezer]

Got a scope mounted and zeroed on the StG44 .22LR so it's back to the Modell 4.

Bubba just dremelized a teeny tiny bit off the spring. The gun and some Privi ammo is in the range bag as part of tomorrow's range trip agenda.

 

[GonzoGeezer]

Range trip fail. I carved another half a coil and try again.