Mystery Rifle - need help to ID

[Harry Paget Flashman]

A friend of a friend owns this rifle and asked me to help identify it. The owner is in his sixties and says it's a "bring back" from his grandfather. No other info is available from him. I have some pictures...best I could do.

Here is some additional info:

- OAL of rifle is 32"
- Has saddle rings, may be a cavalry carbine
- Full Mannlicher style stock, one piece
- Barrel is 14 3/4" from tip to receiver
- Base of barrel is hex pattern ~1" long
- Flip up sight with S/N 3254 with a sideways "Y" above the last digit
- Loading ramp is 2 3/8" long, looks like a Martini
- .45 caliber
- 4 lands and grooves in barrel, left hand twist, very bright and shiny
- Owner says there is a reverse "P" with a crown above it on the barrel underneath the wood. He believes it's Belgian. I haven't seen it and he asks that I not disassemble the rifle.
- Owner says there is a reverse "S" inside parentheses next to the above proofmark.
- At rear of receiver above the tang there is a large "1871" with a small "1872" stamped into the receiver.
- Right side of barrel near the receiver is a crown over "AE" proofmark (hard to read, could be wrong)
- Right side of receiver near the barrel is an "N" proofmark
- All serial numbers match on barrel, receiver, sight, top cocking assembly and stock, "3254"
- Very faint cartouche on right side of stock. All within ~1" circle: Begins with "COLTE" then a space and "AD" and followed by upside down "backward E" & "I", then three letters: "VAP". That is " COLTE AD EI VAP" as best as I can tell. I am not real certain about the last "E" in colt and the "V" has a "wing" on the top left of the letter.
- I measured the firing chamber as best I could and it appears to be chambered for a bottleneck cartridge. The approximate dimensions are 1 1/4" long to the bottleneck then ~1/2" to the end. That would make the shell about 1 3/4" long. The rear of the chamber measures about 9/16" wide. .45 caliber.
- The oval metal plates for the cross bolt screw has an "S" proof on one side and possible "AE" proof on the other.
- The forward trigger is installed "backward" and it appears that you flick it forward with an index finger to lower the follower behind the breech for loading.
-It has a safety on the right side below the hammer. The hammer is offset on the right side and must be cocked manually to fire.

My initial guess was some king of Martini-Henry cavalry rifle but I am stumped. Can someone help? There is a slim possibility it may be for sale. There is a real possibility that I want to buy it.

Thanks.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

One additional picture.

 

[JesseL]

It looks like some kind of variation of a Bavarian Werder.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Bavaria/Werder&Aptiertes.htm

 

[Gingerbreadman]

- Barrel is 14 3/4" from tip to receiver

Ooh ooh, I got it! SBR.

Make sure it is registered as one before being caught with it...

As for what it actually is, I haen't a clue, but I am intrigued now.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Thanks, JesseL. That's a good starting point for me.

 

[SDC]

Yep, Bavarian Werder, and it looks to be one of the fairly rare carbine versions. These were adopted in 1869, and are opened up by pressing the forward "trigger" forward; this causes the breechblock to fall, so the chamber can be loaded, then the rifle can be cocked with the large hammer lever at the rear of the receiver. These were chambered for a shorter version of the 11mm Mauser cartridge, but I'd want to hang onto it as a collectible.

 

[JesseL]

Wow, be prepared to pay a pretty penny for it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=97277935

I must say, those are among the most attractive military rifles of that era that I've seen.

 

[Sniper X]

Yep she is a Verder!

Bavarian Werder. Probably worht over a few thousand dollars in that shape.....good find! Don't shoot it!

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Thanks all. Way out of my price range. I'll pass the good news on to the owner.

Side note...being an 1869 model made in 1871 wouldn't it be exempt from SBR rules?

 

[Sniper X]

Harry, ask him to leave it to you in his will....jokingly of course!

 

[JesseL]

Side note...being an 1869 model made in 1871 wouldn't it be exempt from SBR rules?

It looks like the carbine should fall under the exemption for antiques, under the 1934 NFA.

(g) Antique firearm. -- The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Thanks.

 

[Jubjub]

shamelessly borrowed from

Guns Magazine

John Sheehan

The Lightning Rifle

Introduced in 1868, Johann-Ludwig Werder's unique design was one of the most unusual rifles of this or any other period. The Bavarian Werder was perhaps the fastest single-shot, breechloading system ever devised. Adopted by the independent German state of Bavaria prior to the unification of Germany, the Werder saw service in the hands of at least half of the "Jager-Bataillione" of elite Bavarian Jaegers during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 as well as with several companies each of three different Bavarian line regiments.

The Jaeger regiments, or "hunters" as the word translates into English, were drawn in wartime from the ranks of trained professional huntsmen who maintained and managed the private hunting reserves of the European nobility. They were excellent marksmen who served on the battlefield in the role of skirmishers in advance of the ranks of the regular infantry. The Werder rifle earned its sobriquet, "Blitzgewehr" or "lightning rifle" due to the withering rate of fire laid down by the Bavarian Jaegers during the Franco-Prussian War.

This unusual rifle has a pivoting dropping-block design similar to the Martini, however, unlike the Martini, the Werder has a manually cocked external hammer. It would seem the internal, automatically cocked striker of the Martini would give it the edge in terms of rate of fire, but after the Martini was fired, the right hand was moved rearward to grasp the lever (1), which was pushed downward (2), opening the action and ejecting the spent cartridge case. A new cartridge was thumbed into the breech (3) and the right hand shifted back to the lever to close the action (4) after which the right hand was moved back to the stock to engage the trigger (5). This seems pretty straightforward and very fast for a single-shot rifle.

Once the Werder rifle has been fired, without moving the right hand, the action is cycled by pushing forward a second rearward-facing "trigger" in the forward portion of the triggerguard with the trigger finger. The forward "trigger" (1) pops open the action and ejects the spent cartridge. A fresh round is chambered (2) and the external hammer manually cocked (3). The hand movement required to cock the hammer and close the action puts the right hand back in the firing position with the index finger in easy reach of the trigger. The cocking of the hammer snaps the breechblock shut and the rifle is ready to fire. Three basic movements required to reload the Werder compared to five movements for the Martini. This design eliminates much of the hand movement required to operate all of the other successful single shot designs of the period, including the bolt action of today's modern rifles. What made the Werder action obsolete was the inability of the design to eventually be converted into a successful repeater.

Werder's are quite rare today. The Bavarian Army prior to the unification of the independent German states was small. Approximately 150,000 Werder rifles and 8,600 Werder carbines were produced before Bavarian arms procurement became subject to the decisions of the Prussian high command. The standardization of weapons and ammunition in the unified army resulted in all Werders being rechambered for the 11x60mmR Mauser cartridge. This round was substantially more powerful than the original llx50mmR cartridge and led to problems with the reworked rifles. Eventually, they were issued to the field artillery, then the reserves, after which they were sold out of military service, the majority of them scrapped. Very few examples have survived the past 137 years. Werders are very unusual prizes among today's discerning collectors of transitional black-powder cartridge rifles.

As I understand it, the carbine is chambered for a different cartridge than the rifle. While the rifle was originally chambered for an 11.5X50R round, with most being later converted to the Mauser cartridge as mentioned in the article above, the carbine round is called the 11.5X35R. Looks a bit like a .44-40. A picture of one is here. http://rtbltd.com/arch/cats/1203_08.pdf There was also a pistol using the same mechanism and cartridge. http://www.gunsonthenet.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=97345309#PIC