Need help on ID of an M1 Carbine

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Twiki357

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I’m hoping that someone can provide some information about my 30 M1 Carbine. I purchased this around 1967+/- as “reportedly” WW II or Korea surplus. I can not find anything like a serial number on the receiver. There are no stampings of any kind on the barrel. No manufactures stamp of any kind, anywhere, on any part.

On the top front of the receiver (above the chamber) is the stamping “U.S. Carbine Cal 30 M1.” There is the stamping of 1771 on the top of the receiver just in front of the rear sight. There is also an illegible stamp under the back of the rear sight that partially reads “ine” that I assume is the end of the word carbine. There are no other stampings under the rear sight.

On the right side of the rear sight is “I.R. CO. 7160060.” On the bottom of the operating rod is “D716843” followed by a sideways “U.” On the right side of the trigger group frame is “8G.” On the face of the magazine release are a large sideways M & the smaller letters WA. There are no marks on the stock other than a capital “F” on the front of the pistol grip.

Sorry for the poor pictures. My camera doesn’t like to take close ups.

Any information (Or even wild guesses) would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Take a look at this link. Under the rear sight should be the manufacturer and the "ine" makes no sense to me. Below the manufacturer should be the serial number. All that assumes a GI Carbine not an aftermarket flavor. The serial number can also be tied back to manufacturer. The barrel should have markings just aft of the front sight.

Some companies only made receivers will all other parts sub contracted and following rework just about all M1 Carbines were "Mix-Masters". If the 7160060 is the serial number it would lead me to believe the receiver was made by the Inland Manufacturing Division of General Motors Corp. Dayton, Ohio and would fall in the serial number block 6,664,884 to 7,234,883. If that were true the receiver should be marked Inland Div so I don't get the "ine" you mention.

Ron
 
Some info

Twiki

Congratulations on having a fun gun with a fascinating history. If you got this via the NRA around 1967 it cost about $25, and today is worth around $800, possibly more.

The serial number is supposed to be behind the rear sight in plain view. Sometimes it could be in front of the sight, but I think it would still be on the round top of the receiver, not the flat part just in front of the sight as your photo shows. I'm not sure that is a valid serial number for a USGI gun. If it is, then I think it is an Inland.

The adjustable rear sight you have was added later, and covers the manufacturer's name. Shine a bright light at it from both sides and tell us what letters you see. We can puzzle out the missing letters. There were 10 prime contractors with dozens of subcontractors, and the name on the receiver is the key.

The numbers on the rear sight and operating slide are drawing numbers. U stands for Underwood who made that part, and 8G is really SG for Saginaw Gear who made that part. The F on the stock is a P "proof" mark.

The top of the receiver looks like a brown bronze color. Is that real or just the photo?

All USGI carbine were made during WWII, but many companies made commercial versions later. We can get yours figured out with a little more information from you.

Travlin
 
The manufacturer's name and the serial number should be under that rear over hang of the rear sight. There should be a date and flaming pot mark on the barrel top behind the front sight on top. This is the date of manufacture of the barrel and may or may not match the rest of the rifle. Most reworked M-1 Carbines also have an M2 stock which is a bit thicker than the original M1 stock and has a cut out on the left front edge of the receiver area for the selector switch. Draw numbers on individual parts will not conclusively tell you the manufacture of the receiver as parts were interchanged.

As others have explained the original Carbine standard called for a simple drift adjust able for windage only rear sight of two aperatures on a n L shaped flip sight......when the arsenal updated the guns this sight was replaced with the one like you have. Reading the serial number can be a pain and I imagine company arms room armorers and property book officers roundly cursed the decision by Ordenence Corps to make their lives harder. One can usualy read the serial number with a good light and sometimes determine manufacturer by seeing the first or last letter or two on either side.

Looks nice. Have fun with it and be safe.

-kBob
 
Your photo of the receiver suggests by the color of the metal and lack of sharp stampings that it has been refinished. If there is no s/n or manufactures name under the sight then you probably have a " liberated" carbine with that info removed. It was common practice to re stamp the s/n in front of the rear sight when upgrading to the adjustable sight, I do not know of cases where only a partial number would be used. The other numbers you see are drawing numbers and have no bearing on the serial. With manufacturer and serial removed the rifle would have no value.
 
We need some more clues Twiki. The operating rod and rear sight appear to have a Parkerized finish. The receiver and trigger housing appear to be plum colored, which is a form of bluing. What finish and color is the barrel? Is smooth like bluing, or rougher like Parkerizing? Is it black, blue, or grey?

Some GI barrels don’t have a date, but I think they always have the name of the maker unless it has been ground off. Are you certain there are no marks anywhere on the barrel? Look at the flat area near the receiver, and the piston housing. Also look for a P about half way back from the muzzle. Check the bottom side.

How did you acquire this gun?

If it is a commercially made gun it was produced in the early days, and it is likely that all parts are USGI except the receiver and barrel. It would still be worth several hundred dollars if it shoots good.

The more you can tell us the sooner we will solve this mystery.

Travlin
 
Here's what additional info I could find to answer your questions.

Reloadron: Under the rear sight should be the manufacturer and the "ine" makes no sense to me. [Same here. Preceding letters appear to possibly been polished off.] Below the manufacturer should be the serial number. All that assumes a GI Carbine not an aftermarket flavor. The serial number can also be tied back to manufacturer. The barrel should have markings just aft of the front sight. [I’ve been over the barrel with a magnifying glass. Not a mark on it other than a few scratches.]

Travlin: If you got this via the NRA around 1967 it cost about $25, and today is worth around $800, possibly more. [It came from a gun shop in California.]

The serial number is supposed to be behind the rear sight in plain view. Sometimes it could be in front of the sight, but I think it would still be on the round top of the receiver, not the flat part just in front of the sight as your photo shows. I'm not sure that is a valid serial number for a USGI gun. [Agree, but it’s the only number anywhere on the receiver.] If it is, then I think it is an Inland.

The adjustable rear sight you have was added later, and covers the manufacturer's name. [I may need to remove the rear sight if I can figure out how.] Shine a bright light at it from both sides and tell us what letters you see. [Even with a magnifying glass, I can’t see any indication on any stamping under the sight.]

The F on the stock is a P "proof" mark. [It is clearly an “F” and the only stamp on the stock. Also, the stock seems varnished, not oiled if that makes any difference.]

The top of the receiver looks like a brown bronze color. Is that real or just the photo? [It’s real. Appears to be patina and only on the top surface of the receiver that is smooth/polished. The sides and all other surfaces are “machined finish and appear parkerized.???]

All USGI carbine were made during WWII, but many companies made commercial versions later. We can get yours figured out with a little more information from you. [Possible, but I was unaware of any commercial carbines at that time.]

Kbob: The manufacturer's name and the serial number should be under that rear over hang of the rear sight. There should be a date and flaming pot mark on the barrel top behind the front sight on top. [No marks/stamps of any kind.] Most reworked M-1 Carbines also have an M2 stock which is a bit thicker than the original M1 stock and has a cut out on the left front edge of the receiver area for the selector switch. [Neither the receiver (or the stock) have any any selector lever cutout.] Draw numbers on individual parts will not conclusively tell you the manufacture of the receiver as parts were interchanged.

Ibmikey: Your photo of the receiver suggests by the color of the metal and lack of sharp stampings that it has been refinished. [Agree. The top surface of the receiver is polished smooth while the other surfaces are machined and black parkerized.] If there is no s/n or manufactures name under the sight then you probably have a "liberated" carbine with that info removed. It was common practice to re stamp the s/n in front of the rear sight when upgrading to the adjustable sight, I do not know of cases where only a partial number would be used. [The four digit “1771” is the only number on the receiver and I can’t imagine that being a serial number.] The other numbers you see are drawing numbers and have no bearing on the serial.

Travlin: We need some more clues Twiki. The operating rod and rear sight appear to have a Parkerized finish. [Yes.] The receiver and trigger housing appear to be plum colored, which is a form of bluing. [Only the top surface of the receiver. The trigger housing does have a very slight hough to it, but is definitely a flat black (or extremely dark gray) finish.] What finish and color is the barrel? Is smooth like bluing, or rougher like Parkerizing? [Definitely flat black Parkerizing for all other metal surfaces.] Is it black, blue, or grey?

Some GI barrels don’t have a date, but I think they always have the name of the maker unless it has been ground off. Are you certain there are no marks anywhere on the barrel? Look at the flat area near the receiver, and the piston housing. Also look for a P about half way back from the muzzle. Check the bottom side. [No marks of any kind, no P or anything else and no indication of any grinding marks, just the machining marks from manufacture.]

How did you acquire this gun? [Gun shop in California and unfortunately, I no longer have the purchase receipt.]


Thanks for all of your responses.
One thing I’m beginning to wonder about is if this could be a non-military, commercially produced carbine that was made prior to the GCA making serial numbers mandatory and using some military surplus parts. Possibly even a USGI receiver with the original stamping ground off the top that could account for the polished surface on the top surface of the receiver. After owning this carbine for almost 50 years, these questions are starting to become an obsession with me.
 
Like many carbines out there it sounds like a rebuilt GI with parts from several manufacturers. Check headspace/muzzle wear/overall functionality then go shoot the snot out of it! They're a real kick in the pants to shoot.
 
It is clearly an “F” and the only stamp on the stock.
Its a P. The stamp just missed the last part.
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Also, check inside the sling hole for a stamp, mine is RMC for Rockola
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And the primary contractor (IBM Corp in my case) is under the rear sight, on top of the SN.
QNjVRQVl.jpg
 
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From the few pictures you posted it looks like a nice GI refurb. Any GI barrel should be marked. They used Marlin and Buffalo Arms after the wars. I'm not sure how the Marlins are marked.
Can you post more pictures?
All of Carbine receivers are marked.
 
You have a USGI carbine manufactured by the IBM corporation (IBM CORP.). IBM supplied barrels for several manufacturers including their own company. If the barrel is unmarked it could have been of later production and replaced when it was rearsenaled. No way to know who made the barrel. Any of the rest of the parts could be USGI, military contract or commercial. Most of these old carbines have a USGI trigger housing and an assortment of parts everywhere else. I think your trigger housing is a Saginaw Gear (SG) division of General Motors. Generally the value is in the receiver and barrel. If you have an IBM barrel to match your receiver your gun is worth at least $500. It should be marked on the top of the barrel about 2" from the front sight. Your operating slide appears to be Underwood. You have a rearsenaled gun which is very common. I have one also.

IBM_Barrel.gif
 
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The factual data provided suggests the receiver has been cleaned of the serial number and manufacturer. Adding a. Few numbers in front of the sight does not create a new serial number and the selling shop should know this. Absent a correct serial number the rifle becomes a difficult to own proposition. As indicated previously it appears the Carbine has dubious value and should be returned to the seller.
 
Thanks for all of your responses.
One thing I’m beginning to wonder about is if this could be a non-military, commercially produced carbine that was made prior to the GCA making serial numbers mandatory and using some military surplus parts. Possibly even a USGI receiver with the original stamping ground off the top that could account for the polished surface on the top surface of the receiver. After owning this carbine for almost 50 years, these questions are starting to become an obsession with me.

Apologizes if I repeat information that has already been listed.

The serial number and manufacturer on my USGI carbines and even my Auto Ordinance commercial version is located behind the rear sight on the heal of the receiver. The original design of the carbine had a flip sight with two leaves which is a small sight that did not overhang the dovetail. Late in the war, the government came up with the adjustable sight which is what is on your carbine. The rear of the adjustable sight covers the serial number.

Even with the sight covering the serial and manufacturer, enough of the information should be visible without removing the rear sight, assuming it is there. I can read the serial numbers on my USGI carbines and read enough of the manufacturer's name to fill in the blanks.

USGI M1 carbines were only made during WWII. There were some commercial carbines made post war using surplus parts and commercial parts. I am not sure if any USGI receivers made it to the commercial manufacturers.

I am planning to change the rear sight on my Auto Ordinance carbine and have purchased a pusher. I do not remember if there is a locking screw on the sight but there should be enough information available on the internet that should answer that question.

Very few USGI M1 carbines escaped being overhauled by an arsenal and most have been updated with the adjustable sights and bayonet lug. I believe replacement USGI barrels would be stamped as indicated in other posts. If the markings are not there, the barrel is probably a post war commercial replacement. But, I could be wrong here.

Hope this helps.
 
A guy could try all manner of making something rare and original out of this rifle, but the glaring facts tell me that it has been (at least partially) refinished with the serial number and mfg. name ground off. It could have possibly been a Universal carbine, in which case someone wanted to conceal that fact to enhance the value. A collection of military and commercial parts do not make a collectible or rare firearm.
If it shoots, have fun with it and I'd say just accept it for what it is.
 
Mystery solved

I have a solution to the mystery of who made this carbine. It was commercially produced by ALPINE. Follow my evidence and see if you agree.

The receiver is plum colored on top, which is a form of bluing that sometimes appears on commercial carbines. This gun was bought in California about 1967 when few GI carbines had left government hands. However, commercial makers started producing them in the early 60s, and some of them were located in Los Angeles. The lack of GI markings is telling. The odds are this was commercially made, not a GI gun with markings ground off.

So who made this commercial carbine? The key clue is the partial name “INE” under the sight. Wikipedia’s article on the M1 Carbine includes a list of commercial manufacturers. The first name on that list is ALPINE. List http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine#Commercial_copies This article has been revised and expanded with a lot of good information on GI carbines. Full article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine

I went to a site about commercial carbines for confirmation. Yes indeed, ALPINE produced carbines in Los Angeles from 1962 to 1965. Their barrels were cut down from Springfield 1903 rifles so they would have no marks. Now for the clincher – Some ALPINES had four digit serial numbers located on the sight platform immediately in front of the rear sight. There is even a photo like Twiki’s showing this if you scroll down. The name ALPINE was cast into the receiver by the mold and did not always show properly. That would explain why only the last three letters are visible on this one. Check out the amazing connection with the JFK assassination too.
ALPINE link http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_alpine.html

ALPINE is often considered one of the best brands of commercial carbines. Their receiver mold was used by other manufacturers. In the early 60s GI surplus parts were readily available and cheap. A manufacturer only had to make a receiver and barrel, then assemble. So your parts are probably all GI, possibly including the stock. As show previously, the “F” on the stock is probably a badly struck P, as its location is proper for a proof mark on a GI stock. As a commercial shooter it is worth maybe $500. Some of the parts may have higher collector value, depending on which company made them, but you would need a knowledgeable person to assess them.

If you are still thinking of removing the sight it must go from left to right. If you are not careful you can break the receiver. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMitKtucLwI&list=UUzjNVlFgHMOiaJccpn-Olzg

The most knowledgeable people on M1 Carbines hang out at the CMP forum and they are very helpful. http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=6

Travlin
 
Wow, awesome info there Travlin! Sounds very possible that may be the answer to what the OP has. I'm surprised the Alpine isn't more well-known, sounds like quite a few were made. Gotta wonder how many still survive.
 
Jackpot

Yes Travlin, I think you really did solve the mystery. Alpine of Azusa, CA!

Everything on the Alpine linked page is exact in every detail to my Carbine. And, amazingly enough, the 1771 stamped on the receiver in front of the rear sight really is the serial number. As a side note, I bought it from a gun shop in Burbank, CA, about 30 miles (If memory serves me) from Azusa, CA.

My thanks to Travlin for all that research and all of you who contributed valuable information. THR members are the best. :D
 
That was fun

Thanks gentlemen for the kind words, and I appreciate the confirmation Twiki. Several people asked good questions so Twiki could supply the clues we needed. Other people did a lot of work to compile the information for the web sites. I knew the answer was out there if we could just narrow it down to a match. I got intrigued by this puzzle and enjoyed the challenge.

Travlin
 
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