Mystery S&W

[Nightcrawler]

There's an old Smith & Wesson revolver in a local Gander Mountain that I had assumed was a 1917. It's definately old school; badly needs a refinish, groove on the topstrap for a rear sight, etc.

However, the barrel is marked "Smith & Wesson .455". So it's chambered for .455 Webley? The store had it mislabeled as a .45ACP, though once a clerk told me it had been "converted" to .45 Auto (they've had it for awhile). It has a small crossed flags ordnance stamp on the frame, and the serial number is 63XX, I believe.

Any ideas? Is it a 1917 in .455 Webley?

 

[ACP230]

Smith sold the Brits a lot of revolvers for World War 1 and for World War II. My guess is it was in British service at one time and ended up back here somehow. A guy I know has an Enfield that started out as a .455 and was converted to .45 ACP.

It might have been in Canadian service at one time also. I think the Kanooks also used the .455.

 

[Albert Shear]

That is a .455 S&W Hand Ejector , 2nd model made in 1915-1916.
The conversion to 45acp was common.

 

[Mike Irwin]

It could be a first model OR a second model.

The first models were built on the Triple Lock frame, with the third lock at the crane and the shrouded ejector rod.

Several thousand of these first models were delivered to both the British and Canadians.

The British requested a number of changes to improve reliability, production time, and cost, including dropping the ejector rod shroud, the crane lock, and adopting a different finish.

Quite a few thousand second models were supplied to the British and Canadians.

 

[WESHOOT2]

OR?

455 Eley?

 

[Mike Irwin]

Well, never heard of a .455 Eley, but I have heard of the .476 Eley (aka Enfield), which was the standard British round from 1881 until about 1890, when the .455 Webley Mk I was introduced.

The .476 was obsolete by the time the S&W N-frame was introduced in 1908, although S&W did chamber No. 3 top breaks for the .476 over the years.

 

[Hal]

.455 Eley turns up ~ 1K hits on a google search.

Mike, not like you to make a slip on a caliber.

Everything OK?

 

[Mike Irwin]

OK, think I found the information needed to understand this...

From Barnes Cartridges of the World write up on .455 Revolver Mk I.

"The .455 Mk I, .455 Mk II, .455 Colt, and the original .476 revolver are all interchangable and can be fired in early British service arms."

The .455 Mk II is what we think of when we think of as THE Webley round.

I'm thinking that the .476 Eley and the .455 Mk I somehow had a name merge.

The cartridge that is being talked about is actually the .455 Mk I, but for some reason people called it the .455 Eley, perhaps because it replaced the .476 Eley.

I'm even finding indications on the Web that the .450 Revolver (aka .450 Adams), the round that was used before the .476 Eley, was called the .450 Eley.

I really think we're talking about one cartridge with quite a few names.

 

[Mike Irwin]

BINGO!


Just what I thought. Found apparent confirmation of my theory in the form of this passage...

"In the WW I era, Canada bought large numbers of Colt New Service
revolvers (an 1898 design), in calibre ".455 Colt," also known as ".455
Eley." That cartridge was the long-cased .455 Webley Mk I, loaded with
MORE smokeless powder than the .455 Webley Mk II, and more powerful
that the standard British service .455 Webley Mk I cartridges."


Came from this web site...

http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab133/Archives/Digests/v01n800-899/v01n851.txt

 

[Lone Star]

Mike,

Eley was a cartridge company. Their .455 is just the .455 Mk. I or II, whichever they made at the time. They made both. I think they also introduced at least one.

.455 Colt is .455 Mk. I. It was also loaded in the US and Canada.

The fellow who saw a .455 Enfield saw a Webley Mk. VI made by Enfield Arsenal. It's identical to Webley production, including quality control. I've owned both. After WWI, the Crown stiffed Webley by making the guns at their own arsenal, later going to a .38 revolver they developed.

Lone Star

 

[Mike Irwin]

Lone,

I know exactly who Eley was.

The problem was that the .455 Eley was being trotted out as if it was a distinct and separate cartridge, which I had never heard of.

The .476 apparently was developed by Eley, so it's more appropriate to use that nomenclature for that cartridge.