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Myth: Modern Rifles shoot better than old ones.

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BHP9,

As usuall you were only hell bent to attack anything I say and you missed by a mile the whole point of the post

Turnabout is fair play, nicht wahr?

Speaking of "missed by a mile the point of the post"... :rolleyes:

I've no doubt that all manner of lucky shots have occured throughout the history of firearms.

Hkmp5sd,

Of the five guys who swear on a stack of bibles that they are the one who zapped Sedgwick, the Hero of Capt. Harris's account is one of the least plausible for one reason: Sedgewick wasn't mounted when he was killed... ;)
 
I don't think glass bedding is any kind of huge modern advantage. How many rifles come from the factory glass bedded?
Its more of a remedy for stocks that are poorly fitted to begin with. Having been shooting mauser military rifles for several years, the first time I took a Rem 700 apart (a rifle that has a reputation for good accuracy, and mine was not exception) I was shocked. What the he.. aluminum triggerguard, rough inletting, tang is not pillar bedded???:rolleyes: The bore quality of my factory barrelled 700 is not even anywhere near as good as some of my rifles that are over 75 years old. I don't have a bore scope, but I can see nicks and rough areas in the rifling, whereas I can not see any such thing in some of my older rifles.
 
I love the Billy Dixon story. The range varies from the probable 1,300 yards or so on out to over a mile, depending on the source. I read one account from way back when that said he was actually aiming at an Indian adjacent to the one that was hit--and I find that sorta credible. :)

I fairly regularly see folks wandering around my area at distances of 1/2 a mile on out to over a mile. I have found that my pet rig can make nice groups at 500 yards. I know pretty much what is the trajectory of an '06 "way out there". Scope, knowledge and all, I'd be hesitant to bet money on hitting a human-sized target, first shot, without knowing the exact distance.

Absent a range-finder, I'm sorta hard to convince about first-shot hits with these older rifles, way out there. "I flang it up, pulled trigger, and he went down." comes from somebody I don't wanna play poker against.

But as has been proven many times, luck will beat skill, any day of the week.

:), Art
 
I'm blanking a little on my history, but, what, maybe 500,000 soldiers were killed during the civil war? And for each of those deaths, I assume there were several multiples of nonlethal hits. And for each of those casualties, I assume there were, who knows, five or ten or twenty shots fired that didn't hit? So, out of the many millions of shots fired, I'm just not sure how statistically significant a few lucky shots would be. I'm a lot more persuaded by the weapons' performance under more controlled conditions than by such anectdotal evidence.
 
A bit of perspective on Old Rifles: The WW II cost of a Garand, I have read, was $94.

Before my father went into the Army, his salary as a graduate engineer with some 8 years experience was around $200 a month. My grandfather was a school principal with 20 years experience in Austin (37 total) and his salary was $300 a month. My mother got her PhD in Psych in 1942 and UTex raised her pay to some $115 a month.

Common labor earned $40 to $60 a month.

In 1941-ish, a Model 70 Winchester sold for $54.

From what I know of today's salaries and costs, then, you'd have to compare these old military rifles with the top of the line commercials, and possibly on into the custom-rifle arena.

We equal the performance of the past, but at 1/3 the cost and sometimes even less (NEF, e.g.).

Art
 
"I don't think glass bedding is any kind of huge modern advantage. How many rifles come from the factory glass bedded?
Its more of a remedy for stocks that are poorly fitted to begin with."

I'd LOVE it if every rifle coming off the line was hand inlet into its stock, so that wood and metal mates perfectly!

I'd also love the price that would be charged for such a service!

Fact of the matter is that you can't guarantee a perfectly fit action to wood, even at the best of times.

The reason rifles don't come from the factory glass bedded is because that would come under the realm of the custom fitting.

I don't think it would be possible to develop a machine that could effectively glass bed a rifle.
 
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I love the Billy Dixon story. The range varies from the probable 1,300 yards or so on out to over a mile, depending on the source.

Your quite righrt ART as a matter of fact I think it was years ago in "The GUN Digest" that ran the story and they claimed it was over a mile. Although I must admit the 1,500 yards would be a much more likely range to hit something in. Still we cannot rule out the possiblity that it was a mile or more.



We equal the performance of the past, but at 1/3 the cost and sometimes even less (NEF, e.g.).

Your right art but we pay a heavy price in terms of aesthetics and even reliablity and rugged construction. Very few if any of the modern bolt rifles will take the abuse that the early all steel, all forged weapons took and still take over 100 years later. Just as one of the other posters stated , that when he took apart his 1909 Argentine Mauser Rilfe and compared it to his Remnington rifle" the Remintion looked like a toy" what he was looking at was all the flimsy stamped sheet metal in the rifle.

"I don't think glass bedding is any kind of huge modern advantage. How many rifles come from the factory glass bedded?

Glad you mentioned this Mike because this is one of my pet peeves. Many people think that the new synthetic stocks that come with the aluminum bedding block and a dab of soft glue like epoxy in the recoil lug area make the gun every bit as accurate as an old fashioned glass bedding job. I beg to differ and I have dug out that dab of glue and rebedded more than one synthetic stocked rifle and seen an improvement in accuracy. True it often is not dramtic in heavy barrled guns but it is there if one is experienced enough to look for it and compare before and after groups for consistancy.

In my opinion the aluminum bedding block in all instances does not always prevent the gun from moving around in the stock when under recoil and this becomes much more evident as the caliber and recoil goes up. It is not so noticable in the lower recoiling guns like the .22 centerfires. Lets face it, take apart a synthetic stock from the guns action and see how easily it comes apart and then after glass bedding the same weapon you will find you have to tap the stock out with a rubber mallet. This snug fit alone will tell you that the action is much more secure from moving around with a good glass bed job than with the aluminum bedding block with no glass bedding. It often does not take much movement at all to cause inconsistant accuracy and even fliers on some guns especially in the light barreled, heavy recoiling weapons.

All this brings up the comparison of the older stock weapons that often had such out of this world bedding that even 100 years later there is still little movement of the rifle's action in the stock because of the precise hand bedding techniques they used. It's just that hard glass bedding will often last a lot longer than the much softer hand bedded wood stock when thousands of rounds are put through a gun or if the caliber is very large which gives tremedous recoil coupled with the many rounds that are often fired on the target range. Glass bedding came about not so much because of a short term gain in accuracy but a long term gain in accuracy and a lower cost alternative that the home hobbiest could do himself rather than pay a custom stock maker big bucks to hand bed a wooden stock for the owner.

This is just my own personal opinion but I think the original idea of the aluminum bedding block really came about because of a need to strengthen up the flimsy low grade plastic stocks that are found on most production grade rifles (we are not talking about custom made layered synthetic stocks like those sold by Mcmillan) but they too also benefit from the stiffening of the aluminum bedding block. If the aluminum bedding block were not there on those stocks cranking down on the stock screws would crush the plastic just as wood stocks are crushed if too much torq is put on the screws. Even with the use of aluminum or steel pillars there is still a need for the aluminum bedding block to stiffen up the low grade plastic stocks on most production rifles.

I have also been told by gunsmiths that do a lot of work on these stocks that the low grade injected stocks will even change point of impact when under extreme heat or cold. Again we are not talking about the high grade and much more expensive layered custom stocks hand built by outfits like Mcmillan.

I often think way too much is made of the fact that the even the high grade sythetics are warp free so therefore one should scrap out his $1,0000 dollar triple grade "A" wood stock. I have waterproofed wood stocks and although they will not take a long term day after day soaking like the sythetics do it takes something this extreme to make them warp.

I personally have always carried a waterproof gun sack with me if caught far from camp in a down pore and I prefer not to hunt all day in the poring down rain anyway. I much prefer the beauty of the old weapons in the very fine wood stocks that many came with or had added to them. A little precaution and common sense, like oiling and even greasing the blued gun can let you have your cake and eat it too i.e. owning work of art but not having to leave it home hanging over the fire place or locked away in the deep dark unkown depths of your gun safe.

Old time famous hunters like Townsend Whelen and Jack O'conner and Waren Page often used expensive , beautifully made custom rifles for years and years under very adverse condtions in the far corners of the world before having to have them restocked because the stocks had worn out. They used a gun that was a work of art that they were proud to show their friends because it was not just built to be used as a low cost shooting machine.

I suppose a good old fashioned masterpiece of a rifle is best compared to riding to work in a rusted out pick up truck. Sure it will get you there if in fair mechanical condition but its not the same as riding in a Rolls Royce.
 
... Jack O'conner ...

Careful, BHP9. I heard Jack shot a lot of his trophies with a keyboard. :eek:

I agree with you about the asthetics of well made wood and metal weapons. Sure makes the modern stuff look Mickey Mouse. :uhoh:
 
One problem with today's stocks is that the cost of really good walnut is outta sight. Today's walnut stocks don't appear or feel to be as dense (heavy), and the low end rifles use "hardwood". Since the laminated and the better synthetics are just as strong as quality walnut, the middle-grades to higher-end rifles are commonly seen with them.

I don't like stamped pieces, nor plastic, but there are plenty of all-steel critters out there. They just cost a bit more--and I spoke to that earlier.

A military rifle is expected to get harsher handling than a basic hunting rig. Dunno 'bout y'all, but I don't plan on having to buttstroke somebody with my Weatherby or my Sako. As far as the comparative strength of a military receiver or bolt, I don't see that as important. The receiver of my Ruger 77 Mk II in .223 is rather small, but it handles the pressure--which is all it's gotta do.

:), Art
 
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