N320 Performance Difference Over Only 30 degF?

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rdtompki

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Lots of conflicting analytic and anecdotal threads on the interweb, but I just started light loads with N320 behind 115gr coated lead and there is no question in my mind that at lower temperatures (40 degrees) the load is softer, the ejection weaker in our 9mm 1911s.

We went to the range last week with three loads (3.6, 3.7, 3.8) grains that had all previously cycled reliably in our guns. It was chilly for CA, maybe 40 degrees, and none of the loads would cycle reliably: stove pipes and obviously week ejection. The ammo cans had been sitting on our garage floor overnight so I don't doubt the ammo was actually colder than the ambient. At yesterdays match starting at a chilly 45 degrees I brought both 3.7 and 3.8 grains. My first stage I had one stovepipe and obviously very week ejection. The last six stages (steel challenge) the gun cycled flawlessly as the temperature slowly rose. This ammo we had left in the house overnight before the match. I don't believe gun lube was at issue; I'm using oil only now and the slide action was very slick at the start of the match.

Now, we're not talking about a huge temperature change, but it's almost as though with these soft loads there is some sort of a threshold that is more abrupt than one might expect from the relatively small temperature change. The good new is that I never had to open up the bags of 3.8 and I did gather some additional info. (My wife went back to our proven 3.3gr WSF behind 147gr Bayou).

If I had the time I'd drag out my chrono one of these colder mornings. I'm also dealing with the fact that my wife's gun has never been as smooth as mine, but it's going back to the factory for some rework so it will be much smoother upon return.

Long post, but setting aside that I'm running slightly below the 3.9gr VV min. for N320 behind 115gr LRN, is there a mechanism by which that 30 degF temperature difference would have such a big effect?

(and apologies for the long post)
 
I loaded some N320 for my G42 .380 and I have some stovepipes when it gets cooler. I like the powder and accuracy but see the need to bump up an extra tenth or two. I only have about 1 stovepipe per magazine and some run flawlessly.
I have read where temperatures affect some powders more than others. Apparently this is one of them.
 
That would be nice to have a powder- temp./position "Chart according to powder brand name. Were is bds. ?P. sensative chart?
 
Either my observation is bogus (very possible) or there is something subtle going on. These small cases and low powder charges have a lot of heat-conductive surface area relative to the powder volume. Maybe the powder burns just a bit slower due to this ratio.

I've asked on a couple of forums what criteria powder manufacturers use to determine the minimum load, but didn't get any responses. I'm sure that interior ballistics is a lifetime study so I'm at the mercy of proven wisdom: if it doesn't cycle increase the powder charge until it does cycle (or decrease the weight of the recoil spring or ....)
 
Might just need to bump it up a tenth or two for good function in all temps.

I run 3.9 Grs (Really averages a bit above) of N320 under a 124 gr plated bullet, and while it it doesn't throw brass far (Drops right next to me), it functions fine, and has functioned well in 40+ degree temps. Same for upper 90's. I haven[t chroned it in cold temps, but it functions fine.
 
I've gone as low as 8 lbs with stock purporting to be 9 lbs. I normally run a 10 lb. Wolff spring. Mainspring is 19 lbs (no ILS). I'll know more today.

The first practice when wife an I experienced weak ejection I had change lubes, still an oil but slightly heavier than what I had been using. Since then I've gone back to what I had been using. Both lubes are used by SA Custom Shop on SS 1911s. Of course a 9mm is going to be more sensitive than a 45ACP.

This is easy enough to solve. I'm mainly curious about the behavior of the powder. A Google revealed that folks experience was all over the map, both positive and negative temperature sensitivity. Must be a more complex problem.
 
I shoot at an indoor range so temps don't mean anything but I've been shooting N320 for several years in my .45ACP. Loads at quite reduced levels for paper punching but I've tuned the recoil spring to the load. I run a 10 pound spring in my Curtis 1911. I don't know the numbers for 9mm.
Stu
 
lauderdale said:
would be nice to have a powder- temp./position Chart according to powder brand name. Were is bds?
Good idea.

I have known W231/HP-38 to be more temperature sensitive than Titegroup and WSF to be reverse temp sensitive but did some digging and found the following: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102744 http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/temperature-effect-on-chrono-and-pf.130949/

Standard/Temperature sensitive powders (produces higher velocities at higher temps):
- Clays
- Titegroup
- W231/HP-38
- Power Pistol

Reverse/inverse temperature sensitive powders
(produces higher velocities at lower temps):
- Competition
- WST
- Solo 1000
- N320 (but some claim reverse temp sensitivity)
- SR7625
- Universal
- WSF
- Silhouette

While temperature sensitivity may not matter much to most reloaders, it is very significant for match shooters needing to meet minor/major power factor requirements.

I had planned to do some chrono testing of my loads but it's been raining all week. I can add temperature testing as well to verify temperature sensitivity with chrono data and update the powder type/burn rate/characteristic post - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10094185#post10094185
 
Last edited:
Good idea.



I have known W231/HP-38 to be more temperature sensitive than Titegroup and WSF to be reverse temp sensitive but did some digging and found the following: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102744 http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/temperature-effect-on-chrono-and-pf.130949/



Standard/Temperature sensitive powders (produces higher velocities at higher temps):

- Clays

- Titegroup

- W231/HP-38

- Power Pistol



Reverse/inverse temperature sensitive powders
(produces higher velocities at lower temps):

- Competition

- WST

- Solo 1000

- N320 (but some claim reverse temp sensitivity)

- SR7625

- Universal

- WSF

- Silhouette



While temperature sensitivity may not matter much to most reloaders, it is very significant for match shooters needing to meet minor/major power factor requirements.



I had planned to do some chrono testing of my loads but it's been raining all week. I can add temperature testing as well to verify temperature sensitivity with chrono data and update the powder type/burn rate/characteristic post - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10094185#post10094185


BDS, I've always heard WST was reverse temp sensitive. I shoot a fair amount of it in bullseye loads in 45ACP, and here in IL that means everything from 100 degrees to 10 degrees(any colder and I'm staying home!).

I have yet to experience any difference in recoil or impact on target, yet I admit my loads are very mild. I am Using below starting charges.
 
I think temperature sensitivity is more prevalent in small volume case like 9mm than 45ACP. 45ACP may indeed be affected by temperature sensitivity of the powders but due to lower pressure/higher volume case, it may not show enough on muzzle velocity change to be noticed, especially at lower powder charge bullseye match loads.

I am planning to conduct temperature sensitivity chrono testing with loads around 1050 fps with 124/125 gr bullets to help match shooters maintain 130+ PF requirements.
 
I think temperature sensitivity is more prevalent in small volume case like 9mm than 45ACP. 45ACP may indeed be affected by temperature sensitivity of the powders but due to lower pressure/higher volume case, it may not show enough on muzzle velocity change to be noticed, especially at lower powder charge bullseye match loads.

I am planning to conduct temperature sensitivity chrono testing with loads around 1050 fps with 124/125 gr bullets to help match shooters maintain 130+ PF requirements.


That's a thought. I guess I need to get my uncle to dig out his chrono and test some this winter. I can do ten outside and then hit the indoor range and do ten inside and check the difference.
 
To test the temperature sensitivity extremes that could be experienced by match shooters, I am planning to test same loads around 50F/75F/100F or 40F/60F/80F/100F after cooling/warming long enough to allow internal powder charge temperature to stabilize and use ice chests to maintain temperature range for chrono testing.
 
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