national disasters,looting and character

[Lobotomy Boy]

Hey, we needn't start a new war between the states. We have enough problems.

You assume
* EVERYONE has a car that they can gas up and drive away
* Everyone has the luxory of being able to leave (older relatives, no way to protect personal belongings and not having insurance
* Everyone has SOMEWHERE TO GO.
* Everyone KNEW it was going to be this bad. They've had storms before but I do not think it was known to be this bad beforehand, or it would have been forced door to door evacuations with a leaflet bombing to boot.

I agree with you that I painted the older and disabled folks unfairly and should have made a note excluding them. But I disagree with the rest of your points as follows:

1: Anyone who lacks the resources to have a functioning car is doing something wrong. If they are too poor to buy a car, they should get better jobs. If they can't get jobs, why is that? Lack of education? If so, who put the gun to their heads and told them to drop out of school? If they were unable to finish school, well, I said one of the reasons a person might stay was stupidity, and extreme stupidity would be the only reason other than laziness that a person would drop out of school in this day and age.

2. Not everyone has somewhere to go? Any damned place would be better than the center of a catagory 5 hurricane. Hell, they could sleep on a park bench in Kentucky or just about anywhere. They don't need a damned four-star hotel. Not having somewhere to go is complete B.S.

3. Not everyone knew the hurricane was going to be bad? The damned fools in New Orleans live below sea level. When the government says "evacuate," and you don't evacuate, it's called natural selection and it's nature's way of removing your dumb-ass DNA from the gene pool.

 

[kbr80]

You assume
* EVERYONE has a car that they can gas up and drive away
* Everyone has the luxory of being able to leave (older relatives, no way to protect personal belongings and not having insurance
* Everyone has SOMEWHERE TO GO.
* Everyone KNEW it was going to be this bad. They've had storms before but I do not think it was known to be this bad beforehand, or it would have been forced door to door evacuations with a leaflet bombing to boot.

I remember reading somewhere, and later confirming it with a hotel owner here in my town in Arkansas, that Free bus rides were offered/provided, and many did not jump on it.

 

[Phoenix_III]

LB, not having a full education does not mean some one has a bad character or will result in stealing/hurting others. This I know.

Many people would not be interesting in driving somewhere only to have no place to go, no food to eat, etc. I personally have no idea if the gov't said just MOVE YOUR ASS and we'll feed you, if so (which I hope they did), then yeah, no real excuse except no insurance (if you have anything to steal).

As for choosing to live below sea level... well... heh.

kb - that's just unfortunate. I think many people underestimated what would happen, and I just find it fascinating that in these situations, you have two kinds of people.

1) The High Road -> Those that rise above the occassion, help others selfelessly, take care of themselves effectively, and come up with solutions

2) The Low Road -> Those that sink into the darkness, steal, rape, murder, do what 'feels good' and f~ everyone else. These 'things' are the problem.

Then I guess there are some that are the 'Middle of the Road', which are the ones that are helped or hurt by the High or Low roaders. =)

 

[thorn726]

2. Not everyone has somewhere to go? Any damned place would be better than the center of a catagory 5 hurricane. Hell, they could sleep on a park bench in Kentucky or just about anywhere. They don't need a damned four-star hotel. Not having somewhere to go is complete B.S.

Any damned place would be better than the center of a catagory 5 hurricane.

people just try to deny that, think they couldnt survive on a bench with nothing (in late summer? boy)
and i bet a bunch of those same folks are drowned, very sad.
people THINK they would rather die than lose their home.

ignorance was obviuosly rampant.

you cna also contributer huge amounts of madness to drug addicts wh oNEver plan pst their next hit- how much trouble are those people causing dow nthere right now, endless

 

[Rich K]

In the case of NO,I think Katrina gave the Big Easy an enema,and all the crap came to the surface.Just my .02.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

LB, not having a full education does not mean some one has a bad character or will result in stealing/hurting others. This I know.

I agree--situations could lead a person to drop out of high school--but if you have good character and a functioning intellect, you will earn your diploma one way or another. In the recent past a person could function in society without a high-school education, but those days are gone. What would cause a person to not get a high-school diploma?

1. Low intellect. You are correct--being stupid is not a sign of bad character. But it is still being stupid. You can dress that pig up with all the lipstick in the world and it will still be a pig.

2. Laziness. This is a symptom of bad character.

3. Illegitimate children. While not necessarily a sign of bad character, getting knocked up is certainly not a sign of good character. I'll call this one neutral, but if you are a unwed mother without a high-school diploma, you'd better work your ass off to earn that diploma. Then if you have any brains at all you can get financial aid to get a college education. If you're too stupid to get a college education, you should at least learn a trade. This is incredibly hard work, but if you have good character, you'll work hard because you owe it to your child.

The most tragic cases are the intellectually challenged people who lack the intellectual tools to do much more than stock shelves at WalMart, and I probably shouldn't refer to them as "stupid." But I'm not going to pretend that they aren't stupid, either.

 

[Phoenix_III]

LB, I agree with you on a number of points, that if you are not stocking shelves at Wal-mart as a completely TEMPORARY solution for money in order to get yourself somewhere better, you are either lazy/unmotivated (depressed?), have settled into a low/easy/goal-less life, or any of the other things mentioned before.

 

[hillbilly]

Well, it looks like a bunch of Southerners with rifles who know how to use them are there to clean up the mess now.


http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=050902015113.5lgwn2uc.php

Iraq-tested soldiers in New Orleans with shoot to kill orders
A detachment of 300 Arkansas National Guard troops landed in anarchic New Orleans on Thursday, with the authorization to shoot and kill "hoodlums" Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said.

"Three hundred of the Arkansas National Guard have landed in the city of New Orleans," said Blanco.

"These troops are fresh back from Iraq, well trained, experienced, battle tested and under my orders to restore order in the streets," Blanco said.

"They have M-16s and they are locked and loaded.

"These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will," said Blanco.

 

[CGofMP]

What about earthquakes in LA and SanFran,

A good question and one I pondered a bit as well. I can not answer to LA but I lived through the one in Northern California... I was nearer the epicenter than San Fran too.

The bottom line in my opinion is that the situation was not DESPERATE. Yes there were pockets of serious destruction, there was a collapsed freeway, there were a few collapsed structures, but it was not as if you could not go back home and eat whatever was left in the fridge and there was sure to be power restoration and food available within a couple days - and most of it stayed on anyhow.

I have no doubt that if the epicenter was up in San Fran or in the east bay that it would have played out a lot more like NO is playing out now. A bunch of yuppies in dockers wouldnt have been helping to run firehoses to the one building that caught fire.

No instead it would have been chaos and there would have been violence in the extreme.

While a large number of people were inconvinienced it was not a survival situation and there was no lack of law enforcement for the most part.

The two situations just do not compare.


New Orleans is now the new answer for any idiot that rells you to just dial 911 and that you do not need to be able to provide your own protection. The difference being in NO you had warning. You wont have that if the terrs pop off a nuclear device or there is a truly significant earthquake.

No warning + severe destruction + loss of infrastructure and outside help WILL equal exactly what we see down south.

It's not QUITE Mad Max but its not all that many steps away.

 

[crewsr]

sorry doberman I was a EGF Sacred Heart Grad. But its very cool to hear from people "back home" on this thread.

I just dont know if its a South vs North thing. In the last 5 years (maybe this is due to getting married and having children) I feel this country is not what it once was.
At work we had a discussion about neworleans and when I brought up the fact of Grand Forks they just said "well that is a much smaller town and not as poor" and I said since when does morality and "doing whats right" have amything to do with take home pay or city population!! This country has created this dependent class of people(black white blue or green) that completely lacks self reliance, motivation, caring for your follow man, basic human diginty, AND SELF PROTECTION.

When I look at the TV and see "officials" declare marshall law in an America city, that tells me that the people are so used to being taken care of by the Govt that they cant even control or think for themselves. Now granted they are in a highly stressful situation. But still,........ give me the kid with country smarts over the city kid crap anyday. City people just lack the ability to deal with hardship.

*thinking* I dont know maybe what I have said is all crap but there is a major break here that worries me.



Minnesota public Radio interviewed a couple that were stuck in thier apartment in New Orleans. The couple owned a canoe. And the Husband said they wanted to wait until the right time to leave so as to not be subject to the criminals. He said he had a couple handguns with him. The MPR lady said "your not going to shoot somebody over a canoe are you?" The guy said no not over the canoe. He said he would shoot to protect his family.

MPR....wake the $##^^#@ up!!

 

[migoi]

I think the thing...

that strikes me most of the images I'm seeing out of NO is the huge number of folks just sitting around instead of trying to improve their situation.

We were living on Roosevelt Roads in Puerto Rico when Hurricane Georges took his grand stomp right up the middle. We buttoned up and hunkered down until he moved on to other islands to stomp them.

You know what happened next? Did we emerge from our dens of refuge and sit around waiting to be rescued? Nope, we didn't have a chance. The airfield at Roosey was immediately designated as the landing spot for all the very much needed rescue supplies. Even though every man, woman, and child on that base was a "victim" of Georges' stomp we had to put that aside and become our own "rescuers". No choice.

I guess it's a matter of mentality....

migoi

 

[benEzra]

I know this is going to piss off High Roaders from down south, but there seems to be a major difference between northern and southern culture. I've always thought New Orleans and Grand Forks (where I lived for 10 years in the 1980s and early 1990s) were good examples of the differences between northerners and southerners.

Most of the south has more in common with Grand Forks (or with most of Maine) than with the New Orleans culture, and there are plenty of places in the north that have more in common with New Orleans than with Grand Forks. If Chicago were cut off from the outside world, people were starving to death in the streets, and the police were standing by helpless, would the result be more similar to what you saw in Grand Forks, or what you're seeing now in New Orleans?

FWIW, I'm not bashing northerners; my wife is from Massachusetts and grew up in Maine. I just think your statement was an overgeneralization.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

I tried to make clear that I was overgeneralizing later in the post and in later posts. It was an attempt to lighten the mood with a little north-south back and forth. I also think you're right about Chicago having more in common with NO than some other Southern cities. (BTW, BenEzra, after we last spoke I had a sudden commission to write a book in a very short period of time and I've been hunkered down for about two months--you might notice I've hardly posted.)

I too have been struck by all the people on television who moan and wail about waiting for someone to come and help. I have the good fortune to work with some people from Puerto Rico, and if I had to characterize them in one word, it would be "resourceful." I wouldn't use that to describe New Orleans or Chicagoans.

I don't believe race plays a role in it. Culture, however, plays a huge role, as do economics. In both Chicago and NO there are cultures of dependency, and in cultures of dependency, self reliance and resourcefulness wither and die. Poverty also plays a role. Poverty and low intelligence have a vicious symbiotic relationship. Not all poor people are stupid, of course, but most stupid people tend to be poor because they make stupid life decisions. And stupid people tend to have stupid kids, who marry other stupid, impoverished kids and have even stupider, more impoverished kids. Now throw alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs into the mix--using drugs while pregnant is stupid; hence, who is more likely to engage in such behavior than stupid people, who are also poor because of their other stupid decisions. The result of this is a poor population with an average IQ so much lower than the IQ of the wealthy population that they are almost like two seperate subclasses of homo sapiens.

The same liberals who believe we should give up our guns and let the nanny state take care of all our needs really don't want anyone to have this conversation because their entire argument depends on the underlying assumption that the masses of people are all the same (except for them, of course, because they know what is best for everyone else, but this underlying assumption must also remain unspoken).

 

[Sleeping Dog]

I just read a blog indicating that the D-Day Museum was looted of artifacts.
Shades of Baghdad.

Think it was full of food, water, medicine?

No media verification on this. And the D-Day Museum's web site doesn't seem to respond (no surprise there )

 

[crewsr]

IT is culture but

Looking at the foxnews.com front page right now and what dont you see......white people. Is this the media...yes even foxnews playing the race card?...who knows. But last night they said on average 3 murders and 6 rapes a night at the dome. And all the looting I saw on TV were from Black americans. This is not a racist statement...its just what the cameraman focused on. (I really have no clue what is going on and by who) But I still walk away from the images and think the breakdown of the american black family is killing them (us) more ways than one. And no 60's Govt program will ever fix this. :banghead:

Laziness (sloth) is killing them. I remember 6 hours before the landfall Shepard Smith on foxnews was interviewing people having drinks and just people watching.

I totally agree with migoi, what the hell are you all doing just sitting on your butts........lets go here "can we fix it....yes we can"!! But laziness producted by the entitlement society creates this chaos. I look at other people that are a hell of alot more movitated than I am. What do you think the omish would do (did I just creat a new saying.. WWOD) Does anybody really think they would wait for FEMA????

 

[Brian Dale]

Urban / rural. Not southern / northern. Not ethnic- or color-based.

The evidence of two major hurricanes that I saw firsthand (and many more nearby that didn't hit hard where I lived) suggests that rural people see the people around them as neighbors. Some folks in cities see the people around them as prey. Hurricane Katrina was worse, more violent, than the hurricanes I saw in North Carolina, but Hurricane Katrina did not form anyone's character.

In North Carolina, "urban" black and white people in Durham (whose culture is heavily influenced by "rural" values and behavior, though it's a city) pulled together and took care of each other after Hurricane Fran -- just as people did in Grand Forks. I was there. I watched it and was part of it. There were a few looters, but regular people and police put a quick stop to their crimes. Standards of decency and decorum in Durham are set and enforced in good times and bad by the self-described "nosy old black women" that (for example) kept drug dealers from prospering in my old neighborhood. The police help, of course, but they can't be everywhere.

When Hurricane Floyd flooded the eastern third of North Carolina, those mostly-poor, not-very-educated black and white people knew that nobody was going to get in for a while. Nobody paid any attention to who was black and who was white; they pulled together and took care of each other. I watched it, though I wasn't in the flooded area until after the waters began to recede.

People on the North Carolina coast tend to get out when major hurricanes approach. There would still be a massive problem in New Orleans if everyone who could have left had done so. People staying to loot, or staying because they didn't have the habit of dealing with anything they didn't want to, will devour much of the aid that might have gone to the infirm and the truly unable.

This post says nothing about what to do now; that's another topic.

 

[crewsr]

I dont blame the Govt response at all. Its "the people" of NO that are making it worse. I dont even blame the crimnals for being criminals.....they're criminals. I blame all the rest who do nothing when they see chaos around them, who sit and wait for the Govt, who did not prepare for self-protection, who dont take a stand for thier "community"......This is an american cultural failure. And the focus and blame on the Govt only proves me right. Where is the focus and blame on why their is no true american citizenship, being good moral adults, helping others to help yourself.....among the black americians in NO right now. Its the 400 pound Gorilla that is sitting in the room that nobody wants to address right now

 

[XLMiguel]

Within any society or culture there is a certain percentage of scum. they are not productive members, but rather parasites. They tend to colect in urban environments because it's easier to find 'hosts' to prey off of, and 'society' has provided support system that is more tolerant of them in that it is easier for them to mix in with the truly needy/infirm/incompetent and get lost. In the country, parasites are much more visible and are dealt with much more expeditiously.

Looting happens everywhere there's a disaster (natural or otherwise) that creates a desperate situation. There was looting in NYC during the blackout, some folloing 9/11, it ain't a Southern thang or a black thang, it happens everywhere there are scumbag crimanal opportunists.

NO just happens to have a much larger concentration than most cites for a lot of reasons, but the urban culture welfare/entitlement mentality is a large part of it. Unfortunately, what we aren't see much of on the 'news' is all the law-abiding poor folks who are just trying to survive and are behiving themselves in a civilized manner in the process, and suffering all the more so in the process. As Preacherman pointed out, NO has a huge welfare underclass, many of whom have legitimate reasons for being there, but a large number are also there because they are lazy, corrupt miserable wastes of DNA.

What the scum in NO (and the 'leadership' that didn't do something about them) don't realize is that they are the ones killing their city (their golden goose). NO's economy is largely supported by tourism - who's going to come back to such a lawless place after all the media coverage of the looting and stuff? What business is going to rebbuild in such a fetid environment? Case in point - DC has a devil of a time getting businesses to locate in poor parts of the city because of the crime and poor (i.e lack of) work ethic of potential employees. No business base for jobs, no taxbase for their welfare. And guess what - the scummies have to go somewhere ,so it's everyone's problem now.

 

[dpesec]

Mike,
I'm watching Houston's response. They are keeping the numbers small so they can be controlled. If I was in one of the cities accepting large numbers of these folks. I'd be concerned. Now, I'm not talking about the old, sick, injured, or even the extremely young. It's the 11 and up crowd that I'm concerned with, the gang banger age.

 

[Moondoggie]

Best socio-economic move NO could make is to NOT REBUILD THE PROJECTS! The former residents are being relocated to other cities/areas. Why throw good money after bad by returning them enmasse to the confines of NO to recreate a self-pertpetuating drain on their economy and public services?

Bull doze them, cover them with fill dirt, and build something that contributes to the tax base/infastructure instead of sucking it dry and contributing to more generations of crime and abject poverty.

NO was barely above 3rd World status before the hurricaine...this is an opportunity for the city to improve itself and be transformed into something far better.

 

[XLMiguel]

Dpesec - me either. I have nothing but sympathy for the true victims and hope they get help ASAP (and yes, I have put my money where my mouth is via the Red Cross and Salvation Army), but the scummies are being exported, too. Houston has had the luxury of time to get organized and IS doing a good job. Here's hoping other shelter cites can do as well.

 

[riverdog]

Found this comment on another chat page, sounds like it's from someone that knows the terrain..

"Thugs and Gangs ran that city before Katrina, Gangs and Thugs run that city now.

Nothing has changed-'cept that it's under water.

You cannot change a city's culture in a few days, weeks or months-even with the help of a disaster. To assume otherwise is naive.

The (duly elected)gang-lords of N'Orlens view all outside efforts as a threat to their authority and power- AND will not be tolerated.

What most people don't appreciate is that this is the 'culture' of these folks. Personally, I don't think it's proper to interfere w/ another people's culture. (N'orleans has functioned this way for 300 years.)

When we (as a country) allow a city to act like a foreign country for 300 years-Oh how cute! Party City! Lawless and decadent! A National ICON of decadence and lawlessness-a.k.a. Mardi Gras. Tee Hee! (Wink-Wink)

Now you FEIGN SURPRISE that they act like a foreign country THIS week? (Oh! My! N'Orleans is a lawless and decadent city! OOOOHHHH! How Awful!!!)

Kiss my A**, This us how this city functions every day! This is NOT news! Yet you feign surprise... But it is YOU who is stupid and foolish. No excuses for YOU.

(If you train dogs to fight, and then you are surprised when your dogs bite-YOU are stupid.)

Trust me, FEMA, Cops, the Natn'l Guard, the ***freakin'*** Marines cannot fix this over night.

What I'm confused about is other people's reaction.

Why is it so cute and exciting that N'Orleans is lawless last week-and THIS week it's 'tragic'? What has changed? I can't quite put my finger on it.

The murders, the looting, the rapes, the snipers, the carjackings, the drive by's....all of this was okay last week. Now-SUDDENLY-it's not okay. Why?

Now that people have DROWNED-NOW it's tragic?

Don't get me started!"

 

[svtruth]

???

I've said this before, but these people need three things; food, water and shelter.
Has anyone seen anyone using the plentiful debris to build a shelter and a fire to boil water?

 

[griz]

I'm not familar with the flood in ND, but I suspect that the people were not trapped in it for days. It sounds like they could get to some place that had food and water. I'm not defending the looters, especially the thieves stealing for profit. But if you take a "rural northener" who had been trapped by flood waters for three days, seen bodies floating by, and had a couple thirsty kids, I believe he would bust a window at the grocery store. I don't doubt that he would leave a note telling what he owed, but do you know for sure that didn't happen in NO?

 

[Jeff Timm]

Phoenix III quiried, "There needs to be a term for people with the sense of
* I'm a victim * I'm entitled because of my gender/race/socio-economic background * The rest of the world is the cause of my problems and MY acting up is forced by OTHERS' actions.
A word that does not reference gender, or ethnicity. I see white trash, black trash, brown trash, as all the same... TRASH. But there should be a more PC word for it. =) "

Democrat?

Geoff
Who is at best a Libertarian - Republican. :banghead: