For our current and former sailors and other knowledgeable historians, how do Naval forces protect their guns (the large fixed pieces, not small arms) from rusting? The moisture and salty air must be one of the worst environments for corrosion. The exterior metal surfaces can be painted, but what about the bore?
Naval guns and rust
- Thread starter Telperion
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armoredman
Member
Picture a really big bore brush, and yes, the one for our 3"50 cals looked just like your Outers' rod. Our weapons got cleaned often, and lubed. No problem keeping rust off when you get ordered to clean it all the time. Our M2HBs were gunwale mounted, 2 to a side, and never a spot of rust....elbow grease works wonders!
Preacherman
Member
The bore is usually kept closed with a tampion on the muzzle. This prevents spray, etc. from getting in. However, it's a constant battle to keep the gun and its turret in good working order. The inside of the barrel will be cleaned every few days, and probably greased or oiled with an appropriate solution to prevent corrosion.
Ironically, it's sometimes harder to maintain naval cannon in today's fully-automated turrets. In the older designs, one could have personnel working inside and outside the turret, making pull-throughs, etc. easy to use. In modern designs, there are no turret personnel - everything's automated, from loading, through firing, to ejection. This means that most maintenance has to be done from outside the turret, which can be exciting in a heavy sea.
Ironically, it's sometimes harder to maintain naval cannon in today's fully-automated turrets. In the older designs, one could have personnel working inside and outside the turret, making pull-throughs, etc. easy to use. In modern designs, there are no turret personnel - everything's automated, from loading, through firing, to ejection. This means that most maintenance has to be done from outside the turret, which can be exciting in a heavy sea.
George S.
Member
Didn't the large naval rifles have some sort of muzzle cap that was inserted when they weren't in action? A cap would keep spray and moisture out of the barrel and standard cleaning procedures would probably include a oil of some sort to keep rust away.
I would think that a simple compressed air blast from the breech would knock them out when the guns were called into action.
I would think that a simple compressed air blast from the breech would knock them out when the guns were called into action.
that thing in the muzzle is called a tompkin, yes
cycleing the breech block will provide a blast of bore evacuation air blowing the tompkin out of the bore.... and over the side. the cost of replacement comes out of the combat systems budget. 120 bucks in 1981.
as for rust.. molyidmium disulfate is your friend.
every non painted exposed surface gets covered.
it also must be removed before fireing as the spatter of mos2 stains the deck paint ,to the endless and vocal wrath of the bosun.
rms/pa
cycleing the breech block will provide a blast of bore evacuation air blowing the tompkin out of the bore.... and over the side. the cost of replacement comes out of the combat systems budget. 120 bucks in 1981.
as for rust.. molyidmium disulfate is your friend.
every non painted exposed surface gets covered.
it also must be removed before fireing as the spatter of mos2 stains the deck paint ,to the endless and vocal wrath of the bosun.
rms/pa
280PLUS
Member
Actually, in an emergency, they would just blast right through the caps.
I asked once.
I believe, if you can still catch that video of Cher writhing on that 16 incher, you can see the caps (err, tampions or thompkins whatever) installed.
speaking of the bosun, those new automatic mounts eject the shell right onto the deck and chip the PAINT. Tell me the bosun aint hot now!
I asked once.
I believe, if you can still catch that video of Cher writhing on that 16 incher, you can see the caps (err, tampions or thompkins whatever) installed.
speaking of the bosun, those new automatic mounts eject the shell right onto the deck and chip the PAINT. Tell me the bosun aint hot now!
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Preacherman
Member
I"ve never heard of the "caps" as "tompkins" - is that a US Navy term? In the Royal Navy (and South African Navy) they're "tampions".
As for blasting them off, if you did that in the aforementioned navies, you'd be paying for a long, long time... The tampions are typically chromed, with the ship's crest enamelled on to them, often in relief. The cost of one of these highly customized items can be several thousand dollars, so you DON'T want to have to explain to the Captain how you just fired his work of art overboard!
As for blasting them off, if you did that in the aforementioned navies, you'd be paying for a long, long time...
The tampions are typically chromed, with the ship's crest enamelled on to them, often in relief. The cost of one of these highly customized items can be several thousand dollars, so you DON'T want to have to explain to the Captain how you just fired his work of art overboard!280PLUS
Member
ours - IRRC - were cheapies - it's hard to remember back that far though.
I got a good story maybe slightly related to this.
when one of those big boys fails to fire the drill is to stick an operating firehose down the muzzle to cool the breech and prevent a "cook off" of the live round still in there.
So this is going on one day on the gunline during the Viet Nam "conflict" and after a while some brave/foolhardy Gunners Mate First Class gets tired of waiting and climbs up the barrel to remove the hose and have a look DOWN THE BARREL to see what was going on. Just as he was about to stick his face in front of the barrel it cooked off. Apparently it launched a projectile, a good nozzle and about 20 ft of hose "in a graceful arc" off into the RVN (Republic of Viet Nam). There was conjecture as to what, if any, damage this special load caused when it arrived.*
*Taken from "There I was... Sea Stories From the U.S. Naval Academy Class of 1965" Compiled by Richard "Dick" Zimmerman 2002
I got a good story maybe slightly related to this.
when one of those big boys fails to fire the drill is to stick an operating firehose down the muzzle to cool the breech and prevent a "cook off" of the live round still in there.
So this is going on one day on the gunline during the Viet Nam "conflict" and after a while some brave/foolhardy Gunners Mate First Class gets tired of waiting and climbs up the barrel to remove the hose and have a look DOWN THE BARREL to see what was going on. Just as he was about to stick his face in front of the barrel it cooked off. Apparently it launched a projectile, a good nozzle and about 20 ft of hose "in a graceful arc" off into the RVN (Republic of Viet Nam). There was conjecture as to what, if any, damage this special load caused when it arrived.*
*Taken from "There I was... Sea Stories From the U.S. Naval Academy Class of 1965" Compiled by Richard "Dick" Zimmerman 2002
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280PLUS
Member
Here is a pic I found of the Tomkins/Tampions used for the 16 inchers. Ours were similar but I remember them hving a star in the middle. I also think Ours slipped over the barrel instead of in but i can't remember for sure.
SkyDaver
Member
My ship kept our guns rust free by keeping them in the gun locker except when underway ;-)
We had a 20mm cannon each side, midships. Kept them covered with naugahyde when out at sea. Lead GM took them off the mounts and into the magazine when we moored.
USS Kittiwake, ASR-13
We had a 20mm cannon each side, midships. Kept them covered with naugahyde when out at sea. Lead GM took them off the mounts and into the magazine when we moored.
USS Kittiwake, ASR-13
GARY SMITH
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Whoever is calling them Thomkins is wrong. The muzzle weather seals are called tampions, borrowed directly from the the Old German tapon which was greased rag stuffed into a field piece's bore for transport, imported into the Old French tampion and from there into the Royal armed forces and eventually into US Naval jargon.
In WW2, when the Navy warships went around "cocked and locked," when out of home port, they often used waxed canvas muzzle covers cinced up around the barrel, which definitely could be shot through without worry. If you blew them off, the Boatswains just made more. On my destroyer, we still had a pattern for our 5/54s though we never made one.
As someone already noted, small arms are kept in the weapons lockers. When we pintel mounted M2s for duty in the Persian Gulf in the late 80s, we had to fashion weapons covers for them out of heavy duty tarps to cover the weapon and its mount, complete with a steel deflection plate, as no one at SIMA in Subic bothered to scare any up for us.
Our "modern" guided missile destroyer's designers had never envisioned us needing .50 cals and so they were totally field mounted to confront mines and Iranian motorboat attackers.
Every new generation of warships seems to discount the importance of guns to a warship. Odd how they never seem to learn from the lessons of the past that not everything can be readily taken care of by some automated cannon and a passel of missiles.
I do note though that beginning with the USS Winston S. Churchill DDG-81, the Navy has upgraded the effectiveness of the main gun by increasing the caliber and the firing speed, so maybe not all is lost on them.
In WW2, when the Navy warships went around "cocked and locked," when out of home port, they often used waxed canvas muzzle covers cinced up around the barrel, which definitely could be shot through without worry. If you blew them off, the Boatswains just made more. On my destroyer, we still had a pattern for our 5/54s though we never made one.
As someone already noted, small arms are kept in the weapons lockers. When we pintel mounted M2s for duty in the Persian Gulf in the late 80s, we had to fashion weapons covers for them out of heavy duty tarps to cover the weapon and its mount, complete with a steel deflection plate, as no one at SIMA in Subic bothered to scare any up for us.
Our "modern" guided missile destroyer's designers had never envisioned us needing .50 cals and so they were totally field mounted to confront mines and Iranian motorboat attackers.
Every new generation of warships seems to discount the importance of guns to a warship. Odd how they never seem to learn from the lessons of the past that not everything can be readily taken care of by some automated cannon and a passel of missiles.
I do note though that beginning with the USS Winston S. Churchill DDG-81, the Navy has upgraded the effectiveness of the main gun by increasing the caliber and the firing speed, so maybe not all is lost on them.
Preacher,
Those are the "dress tampions," which are either stowed or taken ashore during times of warfare.
There's a good picture of the HMS Hood and her crew, taken prewar, that shows the decorative tampions very distinctly.
A picture taken a few years later, after the outbreak of the war, shows very plain jane tampions.
Also, it apparently was not uncommon for the solid tampions to be replaced with heavy canvas covers for wartime operations.
In one of the History Channel's shows on the battleships there's a good video of these canvas covers being popped of the muzzles by the air purge system as the turret swings into action.
Those are the "dress tampions," which are either stowed or taken ashore during times of warfare.
There's a good picture of the HMS Hood and her crew, taken prewar, that shows the decorative tampions very distinctly.
A picture taken a few years later, after the outbreak of the war, shows very plain jane tampions.
Also, it apparently was not uncommon for the solid tampions to be replaced with heavy canvas covers for wartime operations.
In one of the History Channel's shows on the battleships there's a good video of these canvas covers being popped of the muzzles by the air purge system as the turret swings into action.
Don't take this for gospel but I toured the USS Bowfin at Pearl Harbor Hawaii and got to ask this very same question. I was told be the tour guide that the deck gun was made from specially formulated semi-stainless steel, which I took to mean that it merely had some chrome content to it. The trick of it was that the gun was meticulously painted, (something military sailors everywhere can still curse about heatedly decades later), and all of the moving parts were generously greased. The tube itself was allowed to fill with water and the barrel could be depressed about ten degrees and was left that way for a dive so that it would be self draining.
Submarines of the day, being diesel electric boats, didn't travel underwater unless they had to, so the gun was never really submerged for a lot of its life.
A crew of eight manned the deck gun, which was mainly useful only against merchant surface shipping and allowed the crew to conserve torpedoes for tougher targets.
The gun itself, at least the US one, fired fixed ammunition rather like an oversized bullet.
Submarines of the day, being diesel electric boats, didn't travel underwater unless they had to, so the gun was never really submerged for a lot of its life.
A crew of eight manned the deck gun, which was mainly useful only against merchant surface shipping and allowed the crew to conserve torpedoes for tougher targets.
The gun itself, at least the US one, fired fixed ammunition rather like an oversized bullet.
280PLUS
Member
all i can attest to is some meticulously painted bilges on a certain adams class DDG...
Either "tampion" or "tompion" is correct, though the British seem to prefer the former. The word also means the muzzle plug used with muzzle loading muskets for the same purpose.
There is no need to "shoot through" any of those light plugs; the precursor wave blows them out before the projectile even reaches them.
The word "tampion" was later slightly modified, by eliminating the "i", to mean a different kind of plug.
Jim
There is no need to "shoot through" any of those light plugs; the precursor wave blows them out before the projectile even reaches them.
The word "tampion" was later slightly modified, by eliminating the "i", to mean a different kind of plug.
Jim
13A
Member
I guess the Army has no class. We just called the ones on our howitzers muzzle plugs.
And yes, I have seen one launched by firing. Kind of embarassing to the section chief since boresighting was SUPPOSED to be performed everytime we moved. Once the howitzer was boresighted, the muzzle plug was left OFF unless it was raining.
Our muzzle plugs were rubber and looked something like a sink garbage disposal plug.
And yes, I have seen one launched by firing. Kind of embarassing to the section chief since boresighting was SUPPOSED to be performed everytime we moved. Once the howitzer was boresighted, the muzzle plug was left OFF unless it was raining.
Our muzzle plugs were rubber and looked something like a sink garbage disposal plug.
Old NFO
Member
"new" Navy Guns
Boats, I was out on one of our forward deployed CG's last year for some ops and we pulled off for a shoot against a towed target. They were shooting the 5"/54 and did pretty good- I was up on the bridge watching with the 7x50's and saw the first round sever the tow cable at the target, the second, fourth and fifth rounds made the cable jump. The GMCM was ticked that the third round missed... Needless to say, they got an outstanding that day. He also told me they use an oiled bore swab to put a "finish" coat of preserving oil in the barrels as the last step in the cleaning process. And yes, the correct term is tampions- I screwed that up and was "corrected"
And none too politely either, something about airdales not knowing what the "real" Navy was all about.
Although they have a lot more "toys" to shoot than they used to, they still keep up the gun quals. It's a big thing within the DESRON/CRUDESGRU as to who is the best shot.
I remember the New Jersey off Nam firing full broadsides at 27 nm with a 100x CEP. Pretty impressive!!! Also I remember being told that a full broadside moved the ship something like 6 feet sideways.
Boats, I was out on one of our forward deployed CG's last year for some ops and we pulled off for a shoot against a towed target. They were shooting the 5"/54 and did pretty good- I was up on the bridge watching with the 7x50's and saw the first round sever the tow cable at the target, the second, fourth and fifth rounds made the cable jump. The GMCM was ticked that the third round missed... Needless to say, they got an outstanding that day. He also told me they use an oiled bore swab to put a "finish" coat of preserving oil in the barrels as the last step in the cleaning process. And yes, the correct term is tampions- I screwed that up and was "corrected"
And none too politely either, something about airdales not knowing what the "real" Navy was all about. Although they have a lot more "toys" to shoot than they used to, they still keep up the gun quals. It's a big thing within the DESRON/CRUDESGRU as to who is the best shot.
I remember the New Jersey off Nam firing full broadsides at 27 nm with a 100x CEP. Pretty impressive!!! Also I remember being told that a full broadside moved the ship something like 6 feet sideways.
280PLUS
Member
Muzzle Plugs?!?!
What kind of dumb name is THAT for a tampion?
What kind of dumb name is THAT for a tampion?
Old NFO
Member
Here's a good picture of them
Here is a pic from the USS New Jersey circa 1968-69, showing the Muzzle plugs/tampions/ whatever the
you wanna call em...
Here is a pic from the USS New Jersey circa 1968-69, showing the Muzzle plugs/tampions/ whatever the
you wanna call em... mfree
Member
"I remember the New Jersey off Nam firing full broadsides at 27 nm with a 100x CEP. Pretty impressive!!!"
Please elaborate for us curious landwalkers
Please elaborate for us curious landwalkers
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