Navy folks, question about firearms qualifications

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nico

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My girlfriend joined the Navy when she entered dental school and is at OIS right now (she's an Ensign and will become a full Lieutenant upon graduation from dental school). She was told the other day that if she ended up in Iraq, she'd be issued a sidearm but that dentists and physicians aren't required to qualify with a weapon because it's too expensive/time consuming. She does, however, have the option of qualifying, which she wants to do.

I, being the gun nut that I am, jumped at the opportunity to get my girlfriend into shooting and told her I'd help her in whatever way I can. I was wondering if anyone who is in/familiar with the Navy could direct me toward an explanation of what the qualification requirements are, maybe even where to get official targets (assuming there is such a thing).

Any other comments/tips for teaching a new shooter are more than welcome

Thanks for any info.
 
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From what I saw on that link, it looks pretty close to what we had to do in the fleet.

For the shotgun, they basically made you prove that you could load it, operate the safety, then pump five shots into a hill side. I'm not kidding, when I qualified there was no target, just a backstop.

Pistol, that course of fire looks right. I remember doing some shooting at 3 yards, 7 yards and 15 yards. All total, it was only about 60 rounds I think. The target was a standard torso shaped siloutte.

Alas, as a nuke that didn't have to stand topside watch, I never got to qualify with the M-16.

greg
 
BS on her not getting qualified to fire a weapon in the sandbox. If she goes over there, she will have a weapon. They wont issue a weapon without basic firearms training and qualification. Bases on the ground are attacked there, not only convoys. We have 3 people IA right now and they are telling me everyone on the ground, inside and outside the wire are carrying at least one weapon. Before she goes, she will be qualified on at least M-16/M4 and M9/M11, depending on if the army or navy does the training and what they have to issue.

this is from my own research, as I am in the chute to possibly be an IA, so YMMV, but this seems like SOP to me.
 
Navy Course of Fire

Hi all!!

I just got out of active duty Navy last month, and was a qualified line coach. Although I did not commit the entire course of fire to memory, I do remember generally how it goes. Now, this may sound stupid, but I don't want to go into detail on it because I don't like divulging Navy training regimen on open forums, even though it's not exactly classified.

However Nico, if you want to help your GF learn how to shoot, take into consideration that if she has to use it in the military, she will be using it under combat conditions, so please tailor the training to that mindset because her life, and perhaps the life of her dental patients may depend on it. Teaching her how to hit a static target is not sufficient. She needs to know how to draw and shoot, shoot from behind cover, reload, clear stoppages, and have a general idea of tactics...like taking cover. Of course, you need to start with fundamentals, but don't tailor her grip and stance to be the perfect marksman. I watched a lot of people go throught the quals in these weird shooting stances that I knew wouldn't work under combat conditions. They qualified because they hit the center enough times, but they were useless when it came to security. If she can do all these things efficiently, she will pass any Navy weapons qualifications, I guarantee it. And before I forget, she'll probably be getting a Beretta M9, so she needs to learn how to sweep the safety off.....or she can keep it off as long as nobody knows!!

Don't follow the Navy quals too closely. They're there to make sure you can hit a target somewhat consistently, not to test or improve your tactical capabilities. It is not the environment to learn to shoot. Her going to the range and doing different drills to improve shooting fundamentals will be the best training for her, assuming she gets the proper instruction. The Navy doesn't take you to the range to practice, it's only to qualify. In combat, your gonna be thinking about things like shooting at the heart....or the head. On the range during quals, you just gotta hit the BIG blue sillouette.

A lot of dry fire practice will be good too. Show her how to draw from the holster smoothly while sweeping the safety off. Then incorporate a double tap er...excuse me...a controlled pair...at the end. She definately needs to know how to shoot a double action.

That's pretty much it for starters. I'll leave the rest to you there Nico.
 
Having the ability to proficiently use a handgun is a skill every one should have, but since the Navy is shelling out more than 200k for her dental school tuition/expenses. She is very unlikely to even be deployed into the Iraq area and even if she specifically requests to get ship duty she'll likely still end up in a Europe/American base. The last I heard the Navy only has 15ish dentists aboard ship and there is a waiting list of volunteers.

Doctors and dentists are too expensive to train to be catching bullets.

/On another note, hold onto that chick. Dentists get to own their own business, not deal with insurance companies (most patients pay out of pocket), and have very low liability costs. You'll pay more a year to insure a 32 foot boat than a dental office.

Also, she'll likely work around 35 hours a week while pulling six figures. She can raise up the kids and buy you all kinds of guns.
 
Well, for what it was worth 15 years ago, Navy quals were pretty much a joke. I had to qualify with 1911A1, 12 ga. pump riot gun and the M14 (I wasn't a nuke and did stand topside watch early on) pretty much a case of being able to operate the weapon safely and more or less put lead on target.
 
Albatross said:
Having the ability to proficiently use a handgun is a skill every one should have, but since the Navy is shelling out more than 200k for her dental school tuition/expenses. She is very unlikely to even be deployed into the Iraq area and even if she specifically requests to get ship duty she'll likely still end up in a Europe/American base.

Albatross basically summarized what I was going to say. I think it would be a good thing for your girlfriend to know how to use a handgun. She should always be trained to defender herself, whether she's going to Iraq or Iowa.

That said, I think you may be getting carried away regarding the actual danger to her if she deploys. I just went and talked to our medic and he said we DO have a dentist on our FOB. Which I wouldn't have expected. But he's a dentist. He stays on the FOB and work in the aid station. He doesn't roll out with the line companies, he doesn't go live at the COPs. About the only danger he has to worry about is mortar rounds. Our FOB has never been overrun, it's never been attacked, it's very rarely even shot at.

And this guy is an Army dentist. The only Navy personnel we have on our FOB are a couple of EWOs. If your girlfriend makes it to the Middle East I would be very surprised to see her anywhere outside of some place like Balad, the IZ, Victory Base Complex (Baghdad International Airport), or Kuwait. Anywhere she is stationed she will be inside a very large, well guarded Camp or LSA. The biggest threat to her will probably be the occasional mortar fire.

Yeah, I know if you need a gun you REALLY need it, but at the same time don't get her too worked up. The biggest threat, at least in our sector, is IEDs. I live on a smallish FOB and go on mission nearly every day and we've had little need for even our crew served weapons. Much less our personal weapons.
 
If she is going to be a dentist, you don't have to worry too much about her not qualifying. Just get her as much range time as possible. My fiance is also in dental school, and also a great shot. Dentists are great with their hands.
 
If she gets to Iraq, she won't likely being leaving one of the main bases. The biggest danger is mortars, rockets, and amorous soliders/marines/airmen/contractors.
 
Thanks for all the replies. About teaching her about shooting on the move, none of the public ranges around here allow anything but plain standing fire. The only range I know of that does allow/encourage "tactical" shooting is a private club that costs $350 the first year and $150 thereafter. I don't think that's unreasonable, but I'm in dental school too and don't really have enough time to get my money's worth.

As much as anything, this is a good excuse to get her into shooting (and possibly for buying a holster for my CZ75)
 
nico, look into IDPA or IPSC/USPSA clubs. I'm sure there's a few around the B'More area.

When I was USN, the only time I ever touched a gun was in boot camp. I tried to get qual'ed later on, but there was never any reason for me to, so it never happened. Of course, times were a LOT different than today. During GW1, we DID have dentists aboard the USS Tripoli and the USS New Orleans. There was also a pretty good medical compliment at Al Jubayl.
 
There are Navy medical personnel all over Iraq and Kuwait. The ones in Kuwait have it easy. Since the navy medical personnel tend to be on large bases they dont always walk around strapped. If she ends up on a Marine base she will have to carry, this will also be the case on some of the smaller bases. I havent seen any navy personnel in any of the smaller outposts. The larger bases are fairly safe, although they regularly get mortared. The Larger bases in Kuwait are pretty much resorts.
 
Since the navy medical personnel tend to be on large bases they dont always walk around strapped.

Oh horse hockey. Virtually every Marine -and many Army- patrols in Iraq have Navy Corpsmen with them. Granted, medical and dental officers don't patrol, but they can be out there.

BS on her not getting qualified to fire a weapon in the sandbox. If she goes over there, she will have a weapon. They wont issue a weapon without basic firearms training and qualification.

Well, for what it was worth 15 years ago, Navy quals were pretty much a joke. I had to qualify with 1911A1, 12 ga. pump riot gun and the M14 (I wasn't a nuke and did stand topside watch early on) pretty much a case of being able to operate the weapon safely and more or less put lead on target.

The Navy usually doesn't require someone to "qualify" with a weapon unless their primary job requires one. A watchstander or a noncombatant only needs to do a familiarization fire, or famfire. They just want to know that you can safely load, unload and fire the weapon without hurting yourself.
 
I was qualified on the 12ga and the .45 in the Navy (subs).

In port I stood pier/topside watch, so we had to stay qualified.

It was basic stuff. We went to the range only 3 times a year, I think.

12 ga was 15 rounds into a man-size target 20 feet away. Rapid fire and normal fire- just basic handling and point and shoot.

.45 was on a 1911. We shot at 15 feet and 40 feet. Basic handling and old-school shooting technique (right arm locked at elbow, left hand supporting shooting hand from underneath). I think we fired 60 rounds each trip to the range.

Most Navy personal aren't required to handle firearms, and don't go to the range. However, it IS possible and available to everyone to go to the range and qualify, by virtue of the fact that you can get your marksmanship ribbons. Anyone that wants to go for the ribbons can schedule the range time through your command, so despite your job not requiring it, you still have the right to qualify anyway. Those ribbons must be renewed yearly I believe.
 
Funding can be an issue for some commands for qualification. By qualification, I mean to get the ribbons, there is more bureaucratic stuff involved for actual qualification. During the Clinton years there were entire years where there wasn't enough budgeted money to get qualified for "nonessential" personnel. Also, some commands just aren't friendly to the idea. We used to put the offer out to folks to tag along when we went to give them an opportunity they would not ordinarily have. A command is more likely to let you go if it doesn't cost them anything.

What you are describing is a famfire for your watchstanding requirements, not a qualification. It was a qualification in so far as you needed to pass to stay a watchstander. It's semantics, I know. But, this is coming from an organization who invents the craziest acronyms known to man.

Once you have qualified and got the ribbon, it's yours. But woe is the squid who subsequently falls below the standard he has set.

The best watchstanders' course I had was on a tin can -that's target to you- in heavy seas on the fantail. Rock and roll, baby!
 
littledoc said:
The best watchstanders' course I had was on a tin can -that's target to you- in heavy seas on the fantail. Rock and roll, baby!

"target" or "skimmer", either one. :D
 
I dont get it guys.
EVERY soldier, sailor, marine and airmen in the British armed forces has to qualify once per year on the APWT (annual personal weapons test)
if you deploy you do it before you go, when you get there and once a month minimum.
roughly consists of 100m, sitting/ squatting standing & kneeling, 200m same + Prone, 300m same except no sitting or standing.
is around 65 rounds total to include at least 1 mag change during a serial.

the Infantry/ marines one incorporates 400m and a night shoo, they also do a APWA, alternative personal weapons assesment, less demanding but usually on minimi/ LSW/GPMG and now also the UGL (HK version of 203)
 
This may have change since I got out 9years ago, but, Corpsman, Doctors, and Dentist's were covered under the Geneva convention. I know the geneva convention is not in use in the middleeast but, the US Military still abides by it. Medical personnel are considered noncombatants, and are not required to qualify with any weapon. She can however get qualified when she gets to her duty station. Most corpsman I worked with/knew qualified just to qualify. Others when on board ship had to stand medical watch while others qualified of the ship, and if they knew the gunners chief, got to shoot extra ammo up:evil:
 
Well...

This is only word-of-mouth, but out here, we have personnel from the Naval Hospital in Bremerton that deploy for a year. Most of the folks I have talked to get stationed at a MASH type setup in Quatar, and even there they are required to have a sidearm with them, whether or not they are qualified with that sidearm.
 
I dont get it guys.
EVERY soldier, sailor, marine and airmen in the British armed forces has to qualify once per year on the APWT (annual personal weapons test)
if you deploy you do it before you go, when you get there and once a month minimum.
roughly consists of 100m, sitting/ squatting standing & kneeling, 200m same + Prone, 300m same except no sitting or standing.
is around 65 rounds total to include at least 1 mag change during a serial.

the Infantry/ marines one incorporates 400m and a night shoo, they also do a APWA, alternative personal weapons assesment, less demanding but usually on minimi/ LSW/GPMG and now also the UGL (HK version of 203)

That makes too much sense, don't EVER expect the US government and the military to be sensible. In the late 80s early 90s in the USN (submarines), while standing CDO in-port, I was ordered to have the topside watches throw their small arms over the side if Greenpeace rushed our ship. It was a different world then, but from talking with people who served recently or are serving now the US military still has their heads up their collective butts when it comes to sensible rules of engagement and the like. I'm glad to hear some people here say that nowadays even medical people who haven't qualified are allowed and even expected to carry a sidearm. If that's true then there's hope; I've been told other things such that people inside bases in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't allowed to carry loaded weapons on base. One of these years I hope we get as serious about destroying the enemy as we seem to be in preventing any kind of accident.
 
The Navy usually doesn't require someone to "qualify" with a weapon unless their primary job requires one. A watchstander or a noncombatant only needs to do a familiarization fire, or famfire. They just want to know that you can safely load, unload and fire the weapon without hurting yourself.

What's up littledoc.

I'm not sure when or where you served, but for ship duty, all personnel with the exception of engineers were required to qualify on weapons and associated watchstations. This is because everyone was considered a security force member for the ship. Funding for qualifications on small arms is bad enough, so they're not gonna waste money on fam fires and not have you qualified. If you're not qualified on a weapon, you can't stand the watch, and the ship can't have the same people rotating out every other watch. Well....they CAN, but that would be VERY inconvenient. If the ship pays the money to go to a range, you WILL be shooting to qualify. Fam fires are done on your own time....or dry firing at the armory, that's the only practice you'll get from the military. The only fam fires that count towards qualifications are for crew served weapons, IE 50 cal, M60/M240 and such. There's not enough of those rounds to shoot a bunch of, so you basically pull the trigger a few times, get the PQS signed off, and you're qualified.

Funding can be an issue for some commands for qualification. By qualification, I mean to get the ribbons, there is more bureaucratic stuff involved for actual qualification. During the Clinton years there were entire years where there wasn't enough budgeted money to get qualified for "nonessential" personnel. Also, some commands just aren't friendly to the idea. We used to put the offer out to folks to tag along when we went to give them an opportunity they would not ordinarily have. A command is more likely to let you go if it doesn't cost them anything.

What you are describing is a famfire for your watchstanding requirements, not a qualification. It was a qualification in so far as you needed to pass to stay a watchstander. It's semantics, I know. But, this is coming from an organization who invents the craziest acronyms known to man.

Once you have qualified and got the ribbon, it's yours. But woe is the squid who subsequently falls below the standard he has set.

The best watchstanders' course I had was on a tin can -that's target to you- in heavy seas on the fantail. Rock and roll, baby!

Perhaps you have a different definition of "qualification" than I do, but, the way the course of fire used to go was pretty pathetic, but it was how ship personnel got qualified. There was no ribbon associated with the qual. But through MWR, you can pay a fee out of pocket to shoot the ribbon course of fire and pretend to be a super marksman. Nowadays, the qualifying course of fire incorporates the ribbon course, plus a nightfire, and practical, so if you qualify, you get a ribbon. It's *slightly* more intense, as in 11 pushups is *slightly* more intense than 10 pushups.

Qualifying for a weapon in the military is NOT becoming proficient with a firearm. The quals are set up to make sure you can operate the weapon, and hit the target consistently, whether or not you can do it in actual combat. So, I guess in a way, littledoc, you are right that it is really just a famfire by tactical standards, but it's qualification as far as the Navy is concerned.

Let the Navy teach her!

Odds are, as a civilian, you'll be teaching her things she'll have to unlearn.
And, if she goes to Iraq...I suggest she carry that sidearm, even if it isn't mandatory

I'm sorry Glockman17366, but I have to disagree with you on that, and I've already stated most of the reasons. Unless she has to unlearn loading the magazines backwards, there are not many things that can be taught if taught correctly that will detriment ones ability to use a firearm. Operation of a pistol is the same on a civilian range, as it is on the military range. The techniques used for defensive shootings are the same as techniques used in combat shooting. The only thing that differs is individual mentality. As in, a target shooter, versus a tactical shooter. The target shooter wants to hit the target dead center. The tactical shooter wants to do the same thing...from behind cover.
 
That makes too much sense, don't EVER expect the US government and the military to be sensible. In the late 80s early 90s in the USN (submarines), while standing CDO in-port, I was ordered to have the topside watches throw their small arms over the side if Greenpeace rushed our ship.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Our SSDF (Ship's Self Defense Force) on the old Iwo (LPH-2) was unarmed, lest we offend the sensibilities of the host nation. (Like the fact that we had a freakin' 18,000 ton war ship med-moored to the quay in Naples wasn't a big clue to the locals.....)
 
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