Navy's plans for fighting terror call for smaller ships

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280PLUS

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Newport News Daily Press
December 13, 2005
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Changing Course

Navy's plans for fighting terror call for smaller ships

By David Lerman

WASHINGTON -- Newport News and other shipyards that build big ships, such as aircraft carriers and subs, could be hurt.

A new Navy shipbuilding plan envisions a future fleet with one fewer aircraft carrier and six fewer attack submarines than exist today, posing a threat to jobs at Northrop Grumman Newport News in the next decade.

The draft plan, which was obtained by the Daily Press but won't be released until February, calls for a total combat force of 313 ships, a significant increase from today's fleet of about 281 ships.

But that total masks a proposed decline in the large -- and costly -- ships that sustain major shipyards like Newport News.

The overall increase in fleet size can be explained by the Navy's plan to buy 55 Littoral Combat Ships -- small, fast attack boats that can patrol waters close to shore. None of those ships exist today. Without them, the proposed future fleet would decline to 258 ships.

The Navy is considering two companies to build the new attack boats. Neither is located in Hampton Roads.

The shift in force structure, analysts said, signals a desire to reorient the Navy away from traditional deep-ocean battles toward ways to better engage in the war on terrorism -- mostly fought on land or close to shore.

"The fleet is being postured for irregular warfare and unconventional combat," said Loren Thompson, a defense analyst at the Lexington Institute. "It is not being postured for war against China in the future."

The new chief of naval operations, Adm. Michael G. Mullen, hinted at the new focus last week after visiting sailors in Pearl Harbor.

"We're in a long war," Mullen was quoted as saying. "It's a global war on terror. The Navy is incredibly relevant in that. We're changing mission sets for the future to get at that."

But the strategy shift, which has been evolving for years, could mean more economic pain in Newport News and other major shipbuilding cities.

By sticking to a proposal to mothball the John F. Kennedy aircraft carrier next year and maintain only 11 carriers, the Navy must decide how to preserve a work force at Newport News -- the nation's only carrier builder -- sometime in the next decade.

Without the need to replace the Kennedy, the carrier currently scheduled to get under construction in about 2012 might not need to be built until 2018, said Ronald O'Rourke, a naval analyst at the Congressional Research Service. The six-year gap in construction work "could also have large effects on employment levels at the yard," he said, unless there was other work available to offset the loss.

The fate of the Kennedy could be resolved this week, as congressional negotiators try to complete a final version of a defense authorization bill for the current fiscal year. The House bill has called for maintaining a 12-carrier fleet, which would preserve the Kennedy, while the Senate version would not.

The future of the Virginia-class submarine program likewise appears uncertain. The Navy's proposal would shrink its force of attack submarines from 54 to 48. But several analysts expressed skepticism that the Navy could maintain even 48 subs.

Sustaining a fleet of 48 submarines would require doubling submarine procurement to two boats per year instead of one, to keep up with replacing all the older submarines scheduled to be retired.

But the Navy has delayed for years the move to double submarine production. The current six-year shipbuilding plan would not begin buying two submarines a year until 2012. At that rate, O'Rourke said, the Navy would need to start buying three submarines a year for about eight years straight. And virtually no one considers a tripling of submarine production either realistic or affordable in a program already criticized for soaring costs.

"No one wants to put more money into the program," said Norman Polmar, a veteran naval analyst and author with close ties to Pentagon leaders. "We're not going to build three a year. I doubt we'll build two a year in the next decade. That means we go down to 35 or 40" submarines.

Despite such doubts, Northrop Grumman Newport News welcomed the plan, which comes after years of uncertainty over the desired size of the fleet.

"While we have yet to see the report, from a shipbuilder perspective, we are optimistic because a defined plan from the Navy is an important step toward industry stability," said shipyard spokeswoman Jerri Fuller Dickseski.

Industry officials have urged a doubling of submarine production for years to help cut overhead costs and stabilize the construction work. At a rate of one new submarine per year, the country's two submarine builders -- Newport News and General Dynamics Corp.'s Electric Boat yard in Connecticut -- effectively build half a boat each per year.

General Dynamics last week announced plans to lay off up to 2,400 submarine workers, saying it did not receive contracts for submarine repair work that had been expected.

Costs of the new Virginia-class submarines -- designed to be a cheaper alternative to the former Seawolf class -- is fast approaching $3 billion a copy, exceeding the cost of the Seawolf. The price tag of the submarine Texas, now under construction, has already reached $2.7 billion -- a 24 percent increase from original 1999 estimates.

"I can't be anything but skeptical about their ability to do this," said Christopher Hellman, a military policy analyst at the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation. "These things are expensive and their costs are growing. As they said in the movie, 'Show me the money.' "

The Navy declined to discuss its draft plan, saying it is still being revised and must await the release of President Bush's budget in February. But analysts said the plan hinges on appropriations of roughly $13.4 billion a year for shipbuilding -- a steady state of funding that Navy budgets have been sorely lacking.

It is not clear how -- or whether -- such significant funding will materialize at a time when defense budgets are expected to decline to help reduce the federal deficit.

This year's shipbuilding budget, for example, calls for spending only $6.2 billion to build four new ships. If refueling and repair work are included, the figure rises to about $8.7 billion. But under current plans, the Navy wouldn't hit the $13 billion figure until about 2009.

Polmar said Navy leaders are betting that more money can be found for shipbuilding by reaping the cost savings of recent reductions in personnel. He said the plan also assumes that managers can begin doing what they have failed to do for years: controlling the cost growth of ships.

But with the next-generation aircraft carrier expected to cost $14 billion or more, he said, the challenge will be enormous.

Most members of Congress have not yet been briefed on the fleet size plan.

Sen. John W. Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, "strongly endorses Adm. Mullen's greater emphasis on shipbuilding and fleet modernization," said Warner spokesman John Ullyot. But it was not clear whether Warner, who has fought to maintain the Kennedy carrier, will support reductions in the carrier and submarine fleets.

Virginia Rep. Jo Ann Davis, R-Gloucester, who sits on the House Armed Services Committee, said, "I absolutely don't support going down to 12 carriers. Dropping our subs down to 48 is absolutely wrong, given what China's doing."

Davis, who has not yet seen the plan, said she also has questions about the role of the new Littoral Combat Ship. "They may have their place, but to me they should not be the bulk of our Navy," she said.
 
Why is it the Navy just can not contol costs?

I think they should send NCIS fraud squads into the shipyards and see what we are getting for our tax dollars.

Geoff
Who is old grey and VERY cynical about unions, the Democrat party and ghost workers.
 
Didn't we decommission the BBs in part because of a de-emphasis on littoral warfare? Add to that the fact that we barely have enough carriers right now to meet the missions of the current Navy?
 
It sounds to me like Navy brass forgot that we have a branch of the military for close in shallow water ops, the USCG
 
I am not satisfied with the plans. Our Navy is too big, by at least twice what we need.

Notice how they want to 'double' submarine production? Maybe 'triple' it. We don't need more than 30 submarines - 6 boomers and 24 attack boats should work just fine.

For every nuclear boat we build, we could buy 5 AIP subs from the Germans or Swedes.

Get rid of 6 of our super expensive super carriers and their associated cruisers and destroyers. What a savings!

Last week Congress was talking about plans to scrap the IOWA and WISCONSIN. Good! Maybe we will get a decent price for them from some scrap dealer.

Transfer half the Navy's manpower to the Coast Guard. Let them smell the sea instead of sitting in some office in Nebraska.
 
We need exactly one Air Force bomber and one bomb to bring the War on Terror to a successful conclusion. Well, actually, make that one Air Force bomber, one bomb, and a president bright enough to comprehend that we're in a world war.
 
Standing Wolf said:
We need exactly one Air Force bomber and one bomb to bring the War on Terror to a successful conclusion. Well, actually, make that one Air Force bomber, one bomb, and a president bright enough to comprehend that we're in a world war.

Sigh, and exactly where would you drop the bomb, and what would be the result?

Geoff
Who notes everyone has a simple solution to a complex problem, that will not work. :rolleyes:
 
This is stupid, at least in my mind. If we don't keep, at the least, our carriers and other big ships, then it WILL just be a matter of time before we end up screwed because of it. While terrorism should be dealt with, that's no reason to not keep a wary eye on other enemies.

I just hope the Navy doesn't get bit in the butt by this

Tom
former Navy man
 
I'd been wondering when you'd chime in on this thread, WT.
Get rid of 6 of our super expensive super carriers and their associated cruisers and destroyers.
Yeah, be a heckuva savings all right. But this statement indicates you have no concept of how carriers deploy. At any given time, you've got got two, three, four carriers undergoing scheduled yard periods; these overhaul periods, depending on the type, can be anywhere from eleven months to more than two years (and can be even longer if it's a a nuclear re-fueling or "service-life extension" period) ... There will be four carriers on overlapping scheduled deployments, a couple more coming out of yard periods or engaged in work-ups and training, and a couple more on post-deployment standdown periods.... We've got one forward deployed in Yokosuka, Japan as well. The Navy requires at twelve carriers to maintain "surge" capability -- the capability to deploy a carrier strike group on short notice whenever needed in reponse to world events (one of the latest was the tsunami relief efforts by the ABRAHAM LINCOLN).
 
For every nuclear boat we build, we could buy 5 AIP subs from the Germans or Swedes.
That'd be fine, if all we needed our subs to do was to lie silently on the bottom in U.S. coastal waters and interdict ships on our own coast.

AIP boats are great for very short range, low speed, close-to-home missions. They suck for patrolling shipping lanes on the other side of the world, or shadowing foreign missile subs.
 
Change the carrier's mission which will change the deployment practice.

We use carriers against third world countries. That is not cost effective and it does not protect the USA.

Do we need a multi-billion dollar carrier and its protective force to provide relief missions? I doubt it. A single converted Maersk containership is better suited.

The REAGAN, BUSH and CLINTON are going to be our last carriers. Carriers are going the way of the BB.

Let's retune our military and provide a force that can protect the US coast and ports from sea attack.
 
[QUOTEAdd to that the fact that we barely have enough carriers right now to meet the missions of the current Navy?][/QUOTE]

Seems like the carriers are the Navy's most useful ships in the WOT. Other than being expensive ways to fire cruise missiles how useful have attack subs and destroyers been?
 
The new Virginia class sub has all sorts of covert insertion abilities, and I imagine the older subs have similiar, if less advanced, abilities.

Most vessels have Heli pads, which are always usefull...

Personally, I don't think we need a super-carrier for anything less than a medium sized war. 2-4 super carriers should be plenty.

on the other hand, SMALL carriers would be incredibly usefull... give them just enough fighters and fighter/bombers to keep themselves out of trouble and accomplish limited strike missions... and then add many, many helicopters.

what I'd like to see?

24 Virginias,
6 High-capacity Boomers,
4 super carriers
12 small carriers,
1 battle cruiser (complete with old fashioned navy rifles)
30 AEGIS cruisers
100 Shallow-draft destroyers with heli-pads and marine/SW crew quarters

several hundred assorted support vessels, with light arnament. (SAM, Fiddy Cal, Extended range TOW)
 
WT said:
Notice how they want to 'double' submarine production? Maybe 'triple' it. We don't need more than 30 submarines - 6 boomers and 24 attack boats should work just fine.

For every nuclear boat we build, we could buy 5 AIP subs from the Germans or Swedes.

benEzra already mentioned some of the problems with substituting AIP subs for nukes.

Here is another issue you might want to consider - the author of Red Star Rogue claims that the Soviet Golf II that sank in the Pacific in 1968 and was later recovered by the Glomar Explorer was actually a nuclear missile submarine gone rogue and that the cause of the sinking was a failsafe explosion of the nuclear warhead as the sub attempted to launch a one-megaton warhead at Honolulu.

He goes on to say that the sub was attempting to mimic a Chinese Golf I in order to encourage a retaliatory strike on China from the U.S. The plan was doomed from the start because the U.S. tracked the sub as it left Kamchatka and would have known it was Soviet in origin.

At that time, there would have been only three possible origins of a nuclear strike from the sea on a U.S. city. Today, there are many nations with diesel-electric submarines (the same as the Golf II) and at least several of those have or may soon have nuclear weapons as well (Pakistan, Iran, North Korea). Even detecting the origin of such a strike would be difficult, preventing it - would be even more difficult.

The nice thing about a nuclear sub is you can conduct shadow and trail operations in THEIR backyard instead of yours. The other nice thing is when a sub from say Iran, makes a beeline for the United States, you can have plenty of warning if you caught it leaving port. You don't have to wait for it to show up on your doorstep to find out what is going on.
 
Great! Reducing our Navy even more! I thought we were fighting a war, on top of different treaties commitments, on top of humanitarian rescue missions worldwide. It makes sense to at least maintain the same number and classes of ships we have now, and ADD whatever new class/type is politically convenient to find money for. I'm sure Chicoms are having a celebration party, before increasing their ocean-going navy.
 
All the hardware in the world won't accomplish a thing if you don't have one on one trained people. One or two person teams to kill the lone fanatics who want to do us harm. Without a charsmatic leader most endevors fail. Killing individual pains in the ass is a far better alternative to super expensive hardware and long drawn out conflicts. There is a need for said hardware to protect your own interests but why are we trying to protect the whole world?
 
Idiocy, plain and simple. We should be building the fleet we have. They forget terrorists can't send a navy anywhere at ass. China or other large country that gets ticked off at us can, or at least can if they want to commit to building one in Chinas case.
 
The mountain was uncharted. Do you even know how they drive submarines? Theres no "window" for us to steer the boat. We use charts, a gyro, and when surfaced, gps. We effectively drive around with our ears. As far as diesel boats being quieter than nuclear subs, yeah, until you have to surface to charge your batteries, which you have to do quite often. The charging of batteries requires the use of a fairly loud diesel generator. "Though nukes have a longer range", is an understatement. Quite a big one. The Virginia class cores are rated for a 30 year service life without refueling, IIRC.
If any of you guys ever served a day onboard a fast attack sub, you will know that reducing the number of fast attacks is not a good answer. The number of missions we have is insane. We are some sea going sons of $%^. The war on Terror has effectively made us broke. We scrounge around for parts and run around with broken gear. We sometimes even scavenged from other boats that were peirside just to be able to go to sea.
You have no idea of the stuff we do, and some of it is quite vital to national security. We've played around in some sensitive areas. Read blind man's bluff, that stuff ain't fiction. Submariners have some of the highest SRB's in the armed forces, especially nukes. The reason being its quite stressful keeping up with the demands placed on them. Letting the remainder of the submarine force pick up even more slack is a recipe for disaster IMO. You'll see people leaving left and right. I'm proud of my time as a nuke, but I'm glad its over. 6 and out, a saying quite common amongst us nukes.
 
"Small carriers would be incredibly useful..."

THEY WOULD?

And just exactly WHAT existing Fighter and Strike-Fighter aircraft would we be able to launch from your cute little "small carriers," sir?

The F-18 Hornets and Super-Hornets? (Right.) Have you ever (a) planned aircraft carrier fighter and bomber missions -- in a real war? (b) launched from or landed on an aircraft carrier... in pi$$ poor weather?

I've done both.

Modern super-carrriers are built around the aircraft their air-wings fly. Smaller carriers? That worked in WWII when the Navy flew small propeller planes that carried only a thousand lbs. or so of ordnance. Today, F-18 variants with a full ordnance load weigh 25 tons plus! Ya see, the laws of physics do come into play here, barring Immaculate Repeal by the Party Of Naive Pacifist Donkeys/Utopian Dreamers/Chappaquiddick-Olympics Swimmers.

Aside from the little problem of generating sufficient catapault thrust to launch those loaded F-18 behemoths from a shorter flight-deck, your proposed cutesy-carriers couldn't even begin to safely recover ("get 'em back aboard" to barnicle-deficient metrosexuals) those pricey winged toys. During the Vietnam era, I lost a handful of squadron mates to jet-fighter landing accidents on old (small) carriers that were 30% SHORTER than today's super carriers.

Another big problem: the smaller the carrier, the more unstable it becomes (for launch and recovery) in bad weather and rough seas... and especially dangerous for night operations. But then, maybe you think that real-world combat operations only take place in perfect, laboratory-like conditions hosted by Carnival Cruises.

You want to build carriers for aircraft that don't even exist? New, costly, but downsized aircraft that can't fill today's/tomorrow's multi-mission roles? You wanta see the accident/pilot attrition rates skyrocket? Ya wanta waste the taxpayer dollars that fund 2 years of training per pilot? Go ahead and build those micro flat-tops.

And then get a raincoat for your wet-dream... on your way to writing speeches for John Kerry-Chirac, Dick-The-Turban Durbin, and Cyndy Sheehan's Troops-Are-Invented-To-Be-Brought-Home crowd.
 
Old Dog said:
I'd been wondering when you'd chime in on this thread, WT.
Yeah, be a heckuva savings all right. But this statement indicates you have no concept of how carriers deploy. At any given time, you've got got two, three, four carriers undergoing scheduled yard periods; these overhaul periods, depending on the type, can be anywhere from eleven months to more than two years (and can be even longer if it's a a nuclear re-fueling or "service-life extension" period) ... There will be four carriers on overlapping scheduled deployments, a couple more coming out of yard periods or engaged in work-ups and training, and a couple more on post-deployment standdown periods.... We've got one forward deployed in Yokosuka, Japan as well. The Navy requires at twelve carriers to maintain "surge" capability -- the capability to deploy a carrier strike group on short notice whenever needed in reponse to world events (one of the latest was the tsunami relief efforts by the ABRAHAM LINCOLN).

Bingo!

+10, Old Dog.

Anchors aweigh.
 
Something else to consider with the carriers is that there are still plans floating around (no pun intended) to use some carriers as mobile Army bases with helos instead of an embarked air wing. It was done once before and the Army liked it.
 
The shift in force structure, analysts said, signals a desire to reorient the Navy away from traditional deep-ocean battles toward ways to better engage in the war on terrorism -- mostly fought on land or close to shore
Interesting; whose land - and close to whose shore?

Seems to me that aside from the absurdity of the use, and continued use of the phrase, "war on terrorism", major changes such as this one revolve around the idea and acceptance that we will not find ourselves at odds with one or more nations in any major actual war.
----------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
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LAK said:
Interesting; whose land - and close to whose shore?

Seems to me that aside from the absurdity of the use, and continued use of the phrase, "war on terrorism", major changes such as this one revolve around the idea and acceptance that we will not find ourselves at odds with one or more nations in any major actual war.
----------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Good point, LAK.

However, haven't you heard that War is bad-bad? War is so, like, yucky. And violent! War involves, eeek... GUNS! We should really just Bring The Troops Home and turn 'em into thumb-sucking vegetarian social workers. I mean, Troops are invented primarily to be Brought Home, anyway.

Besides, avoiding conflict is exactly what the U.N. is for -- eliminating war through, umm, Sophisticated, Corruption-Free Political Negotiation (yielding ground via appeasement, i.e., bending over).

And more besides: if we used half the money we spend on the Army and yucky tanks and guns and ships and planes... and then just gave it to the Chinese and Islamic terrorist states/groups -- why then they'd really LIKE us and we could all sing Kumbaya around the campfire and be one peaceful universe forever!
 
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