Need 38 FWC advice. Must be doing something wrong.

[DustyRusty]

Been loading 38 special and 357 mag with no problems.
I have been wanting to get some experience with wad cutters.
I loaded 4 groups of 6 cases each with W231 powder, Berry’s plated 148gn FWC’s in new Starline cases.
CCI small pistol primers and shot from a S&W 64 revolver with a 4” barrel. The load data is from the Hornady handbook.
I tested the chronograph before & after with a few rounds of known good ammo.

With my test groups, the velocities were all over the place.

W231 2.8gn 3.0gn 3.3gn 3.5 gn

Fastest fps 0485 0535 0643 0662
Slowest fps 0326 0452 0499 0569
Mean velocities fps 0411 0511 0586 0636
Extreme spreads fps 0160 0083 0144 0093

As per Einstein’s prediction, I tested two more groups hoping/expecting a different result.
I crimped them a little more. No better. I read about probable causes like some brass won’t do FWC etc.

Any thought’s?

Seated Bare bullet

 

[Docendo Discimus]

How did the target look? Did you have any vertical stringing?
How are you dropping the powder charges?

 

[DILLONHELP]

Seat the bullet deeper, so it is flush with the case mouth. Then apply a light roll crimp. Recommend just using the two lighter powder charges. Chrono 5 rounds at each charge weight, keep track of each shot at a given charge weight. Please share the results.

 

[rfwobbly]

• When using Wad Cutters in 38 you don't need to crimp. There is enough surface area to hold the bullet securely without one.
• Your crimp might be breaking through the plating, which will most definitely spoil the accuracy. Berry doesn't provide a crimp cannelure, so if you DO use a crimp, then it needs to roll over the end of the bullet.

• Are you using Dillon dies (or another brand) with a totally flat seating anvil ? To seat flush and crimp, the anvil has to actually seat the bullet 0.005 to 0.007" below flush so that there is material exposed to roll over the end. To do this you may need to mod your seating anvil as shown below...

Just a slight bit removed from the OD of the anvil allows it to fit inside the case,
which is necessary if you want to seat the bullet below flush for crimping.

• A still better way is to use Missouri Bullet Co (MBC) coated 148gr DEWC (link HERE) which can be seated flush OR they also have a crimp cannelure at 0.1" which worked really well with unmodified dies. Members of THR get a 5% discount at MBC.

Hope this helps.

 

[DMW1116]

Are these hollow based? I'm not familiar with that pistol. Are you pushing 38 Special loads from a 357 Magnum chamber? I have not found a good load for that accuracy wise. They're adequate, but full length 357 cases loaded with HBWC work much better. I'm shooting a 357 Magnum Blackhawk. The jump from a 38 Special case just seems too much for it to match the accuracy of downloaded 357 Magnum loads or even 38 Special loads from a 357 Magnum case. I shoot 3 grains of W231 behind a Hornady HBWC or home cast HBWC (not mine) and get very good accuracy and maybe 650-700 fps velocity, but I'm using a 6.5" barrel.

 

[DMW1116]

Oddly, I get the same accuracy from CFE Pistol and Titegroup, as long as I don't try to make it work from a 38 Special case.

 

[fxvr5]

Are these hollow based? I'm not familiar with that pistol. Are you pushing 38 Special loads from a 357 Magnum chamber? I have not found a good load for that accuracy wise. They're adequate, but full length 357 cases loaded with HBWC work much better. I'm shooting a 357 Magnum Blackhawk. The jump from a 38 Special case just seems too much for it to match the accuracy of downloaded 357 Magnum loads or even 38 Special loads from a 357 Magnum case. I shoot 3 grains of W231 behind a Hornady HBWC or home cast HBWC (not mine) and get very good accuracy and maybe 650-700 fps velocity, but I'm using a 6.5" barrel.

What type of accuracy are you getting? i.e. , distance, group size and number of shots. What was the accuracy from 38, and from 357 - for comparison.

 

[DMW1116]

I typically shoot 4 shot groups. HBWC shoot under 1.5” from a rest at 25 yards from 357 Mag cases. From 38 Special cases, it was about 50% to 100% bigger. I tried another bullet (125 grain flat nose) from both 357 and 38 cases with similar results. I think I could push the HBWC with baby powder and they’d still get golf ball size groups.

 

[DMW1116]

It’s to the point I’m getting rid of all my 38 cases except one box for research purposes.

 

[Walkalong]

Been loading 38 special and 357 mag with no problems.
I have been wanting to get some experience with wad cutters.
I loaded 4 groups of 6 cases each with W231 powder, Berry’s plated 148gn FWC’s in new Starline cases.
CCI small pistol primers and shot from a S&W 64 revolver with a 4” barrel. The load data is from the Hornady handbook.
I tested the chronograph before & after with a few rounds of known good ammo.

With my test groups, the velocities were all over the place.

W231 2.8gn 3.0gn 3.3gn 3.5 gn

Fastest fps 0485 0535 0643 0662
Slowest fps 0326 0452 0499 0569
Mean velocities fps 0411 0511 0586 0636
Extreme spreads fps 0160 0083 0144 0093

As per Einstein’s prediction, I tested two more groups hoping/expecting a different result.
I crimped them a little more. No better. I read about probable causes like some brass won’t do FWC etc.

Any thought’s?
View attachment 1163553
Seated Bare bullet

Not overly unusual at that low speed and pressure, get them up to 700 FPS and you’ll see an improvement, but don’t get overly hung up about it if they shoot well. Another thing that will help is to point the muzzle up and lower it to level before each shot, getting the powder against the primer each time.

Test this, do that with 6, then do the opposite with 6, you’ll see a horrendous ES.

WST or Competition will give better ES and SD numbers for this.

Edit to add pic:

Berrys 148 Gr HBC very light taper crimp, more to remove the bell than "crimp".

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

When using Wad Cutters in 38 you don't need to crimp. There is enough surface area to hold the bullet securely without one.

100% this ^
A very slight taper is enough or even just kiss the case mouth with the bottom of the crimp to remove the starting flair.
Also, you don’t need to seat them all the way to the case mouth. Half way is plenty. Sometimes getting closer to the throat is an improvement.
The Model 64 is a nice weapon but it’s not a target pistol. You may have to play with the seating depth and charge weight to find its sweet spot.

 

[DMW1116]

100% this ^
A very slight taper is enough or even just kiss the case mouth with the bottom of the crimp to remove the starting flair.
Also, you don’t need to seat them all the way to the case mouth. Half way is plenty. Sometimes getting closer to the throat is an improvement.
The Model 64 is a nice weapon but it’s not a target pistol. You may have to play with the seating depth and charge weight to find its sweet spot.

You don’t? Man I’m glad I saw that before I got rid of my 38 cases. Now to find some HBWC and see if that helps.

 

[reddog81]

Hodgdons starting load on their web portal is 3.5 grains and goes up to 4.0 for .38 Special with a 148 lead HBWC. I’d rerun the test and start at 3.5 and go up to 4.0.

Velocities were erratic because the load was too light.

 

[Hondo Kid]

I reload Berry's 148 WC in both 38 and 357. Here are my chrono results for my guns. The .38 is a 3" Taurus and the .357 is a S&W 65-6 with 4" barrel.
I use Win 244 which is supposedly a cleaner W231. AGAIN....these are my loads in my specific handguns.

.38 Special:
Win 244 Powder: 2.8 gr
Average Velocity: 707.2
Extreme Spread: 26
Std Deviation: 10.3

.357

Win 244 Powder: 3.8 gr
Average Velocity: 802.4
Extreme Spread: 26
Std Deviation: 10.8

I have not run the chrono on the 38 special out of the 357 but am curious what, if any, difference there is compared to 38 data. I'll run that test this week at the range and try to post my results later.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Not overly unusual at that low speed and pressure, get them up to 700 FPS and you’ll see an improvement, but don’t get overly hung up about it if they shoot well. Another thing that will help is to point the muzzle up and lower it to level before each shot, getting the powder against the primer each time.

Test this, do that with 6, then do the opposite with 6, you’ll see a horrendous ES.

WST or Competition will give better ES and SD numbers for this.

Edit to add pic:

Berrys 148 Gr HBC very light taper crimp, more to remove the bell than "crimp".
View attachment 1163588

Perfect! Nice crimp work!
It took me a while back when I was starting out loading to figure out that not every bullet has a crimping groove, not every WC gets seated below the case mouth, not every bullet needs to be roll crimped… etc. That “thing,” the one that works great 90% of the time, fails miserably the other 10% of the time.

My favorite .38Spl DEWC load is 3.5gr of Bullseye under a Meister 145gr. It’s a little hot but accurate in all of my Colts and most of my Taurus’es. Not so much in my S&W’s, older Rossi’s or Taylor’s small frame single action. I use Speer HBWC swaged 148’s and 2.8gr of Bullseye for them. Both loads are good in all the above but the Colts like the DEWC bullet and the Smiths like the Speer. Strange thing is, they all like the Hornady Frontier 158gr SWC-HP swaged bullet.

 

[DustyRusty]

It took me a while to distill all your responses to my question. Many thanks.
The dies are all Redding and the press is a Redding T-7.


How did the target look? Did you have any vertical stringing?
How are you dropping the powder charges?
I wasn’t paying a lot of attention to that. Next time I’ll change target between loads.
For this test, each charge was measured. I would normally throw them.

Seat the bullet deeper, so it is flush with the case mouth. Then apply a light roll crimp. Recommend just using the two lighter powder charges. Chrono 5 rounds at each charge weight, keep track of each shot at a given charge weight. Please share the results.
I will do that. What speed am I looking for for this bullet?

• When using Wad Cutters in 38 you don't need to crimp. There is enough surface area to hold the bullet securely without one.
• Your crimp might be breaking through the plating, which will most definitely spoil the accuracy. Berry doesn't provide a crimp cannelure, so if you DO use a crimp, then it needs to roll over the end of the bullet.
• Are you using Dillon dies (or another brand) with a totally flat seating anvil ? To seat flush and crimp, the anvil has to actually seat the bullet 0.005 to 0.007" below flush so that there is material exposed to roll over the end. To do this you may need to mod your seating anvil as shown below...
I’m thinking that great picture is a Dillon seating stem that you modified. Great fix. I am using the Redding flat stem.
Next time at the bench I will re-confirm that the stem fits inside a sized and belled case.
These are the Redding seating stems for round or flat bullets.


View attachment 1163861

Are these hollow based? I'm not familiar with that pistol. Are you pushing 38 Special loads from a 357 Magnum chamber? I have not found a good load for that accuracy wise. They're adequate, but full length 357 cases loaded with HBWC work much better.
Mine are hollow Based Berry FWC in a S&W model 64 (Stainless model 10 police) with a 4” barrel in 38 special

Not overly unusual at that low speed and pressure, get them up to 700 FPS and you’ll see an improvement, but don’t get overly hung up about it if they shoot well. Another thing that will help is to point the muzzle up and lower it to level before each shot, getting the powder against the primer each time.

Test this, do that with 6, then do the opposite with 6, you’ll see a horrendous ES
I have heard about that. Is there a powder that fills the gap better that might eliminate that problem?
Is 700 fps a good speed for the FWC?


Hodgdons starting load on their web portal is 3.5 grains and goes up to 4.0 for .38 Special with a 148 lead HBWC. I’d rerun the test and start at 3.5 and go up to 4.0.

Velocities were erratic because the load was too light.
I will check out that Hodgdon site.
Are the velocity's I shot grossly low for accuracy?

I reload Berry's 148 WC in both 38 and 357. Here are my chrono results for my guns. The .38 is a 3" Taurus and the .357 is a S&W 65-6 with 4" barrel.
I use Win 244 which is supposedly a cleaner data. W231. AGAIN....these are my loads in my specific handguns.
Good info. When this experiment is complete, I'll know what speed is best from the 4" 38 special barrel. Hopefully.