I have a Winchester M70 270 and recently have had some trigger work done. I wanted to get some more custom work to it. I hear a lot of guys talking about getting there action accurized. What exactly does this entail? How much does this usually cost? Also, I hear about getting a glass bedding and getting the barrel free floated. I know free floated means you can run a dollar bill under the barrel all the way to the action, do they just pull out the barrel and action and take a little out of stock? Also glass bedding? Didn’t really understand that one.
Need a little help understanding this custom rifle work
- Thread starter blackops
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First, when a rifle is fired, the barrel does not just sit there; it vibrates like a tuning fork and accuracy depends on its vibrating the same way every time.
For that reason, the way the barrel beds in the stock has a lot to do with accuracy, but there is no absolute rule. Some rifles shoot best when the barrel is "free floated", meaning that stock wood is removed until the barrel does not touch the stock fore-end at all.
Others do best when the stock puts upward pressure on the barrel, usually close to the end of the stock.
Glass bedding uses an epoxy-fiberglas compound to bed the barrel for its full length, as well as bed the receiver in the compound. That eliminates a lot of real or potential (or imagined) problems with a wood stock and might (note that word) make the rifle shoot better.
To glass bed a rifle, some of the wood inside the stock has to be removed to make room for the bedding compound.
Glass bedding is a permanent process, so anyone doing it should follow instructions carefully in regard to the use of a release agent and any openings in the action. I have seen more than one stock removed with a hatchet because the person doing a "glass job" failed to read and follow instructions.
Jim
For that reason, the way the barrel beds in the stock has a lot to do with accuracy, but there is no absolute rule. Some rifles shoot best when the barrel is "free floated", meaning that stock wood is removed until the barrel does not touch the stock fore-end at all.
Others do best when the stock puts upward pressure on the barrel, usually close to the end of the stock.
Glass bedding uses an epoxy-fiberglas compound to bed the barrel for its full length, as well as bed the receiver in the compound. That eliminates a lot of real or potential (or imagined) problems with a wood stock and might (note that word) make the rifle shoot better.
To glass bed a rifle, some of the wood inside the stock has to be removed to make room for the bedding compound.
Glass bedding is a permanent process, so anyone doing it should follow instructions carefully in regard to the use of a release agent and any openings in the action. I have seen more than one stock removed with a hatchet because the person doing a "glass job" failed to read and follow instructions.
Jim
Thank you for the helpful information. So a glass bedding or a free float application are two types of custom work as far as barrel work goes and I have to choose which I would like? I guess my next question would be which is more accurate for a Win M70 wood stock for the most part?
Is the gun "inaccurate" now? What are your accuracy expectations? A good scope and mounts can do as much to improve accuracy as a free float or action bedding job. I agree with Jim, that free floating can actually hurt accuracy in some guns.
I can shoot 1/2 groups with the gun at 100yds, but not consistently. I would like to put groups of three in one hole if possible. Maybe I'm asking a little much of the rifle and it's not like I'm a marksman, but I'm just trying to get as much out the rifle as possible.
That sounds intolerably inaccurate, only 1/2 MOA. 
Many modern stocks do not need to glass bedded as they have build in steel beds. I would go with a new stock if yours does not have some sort built in bedding. A good one will free float the barrel too.
Many modern stocks do not need to glass bedded as they have build in steel beds. I would go with a new stock if yours does not have some sort built in bedding. A good one will free float the barrel too.
jim in Anchorage
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Sell it to me immediately,and go out and buy a real rifle.
Smith357
Member
1/2 moa is excellent shooting for all but a benchrest rifle. Before you spend any money on the rifle spend money on ammunition and get some trigger time. Better yet, get a reloding setup and tune your load to the rifle.
krs
Member
.270, as good as it is as a hunting caliber, has never been considered to be a match accurate caliber - if anything the target shooters seem to avoid it and stick to availing themselves of the great inherent accuracy of both the .308 Win. and the .243/ 6mm sizes for long range and/or high power match shooting.
I think that a 1/2" 100 yd shooter may be the best that could be hoped for in a .270 rifle although bedding, either of both the action and barrel or bedding only the action while floating the barrel might improve consistency somewhat. Only thought out experimentation will tell.
If you're using a hunting weight barrel are you allowing for the heating of the barrel and the resulting POI and/or accuracy changes that will result from using light weight barrel tapers?
I think that a 1/2" 100 yd shooter may be the best that could be hoped for in a .270 rifle although bedding, either of both the action and barrel or bedding only the action while floating the barrel might improve consistency somewhat. Only thought out experimentation will tell.
If you're using a hunting weight barrel are you allowing for the heating of the barrel and the resulting POI and/or accuracy changes that will result from using light weight barrel tapers?
blackops said:
So what does the gun shoot consistently? What does a 5 (or 10) shot group look like?
What is the barrel taper? A sporting weight barrel will have more "whip" and might react poorly to free-floating. If it's a heavy barrel you might gain some accuracy.
Are you shooting factory ammo? I assume re-loads.
So many things that can help accuracy, I like to try a lot of the low risk tricks before permanently modifying a stock.
It sounds like you've got a pretty solid set-up, but I know the feeling of "wanting more". Good luck.
Uncle Mike
Member
Try the simple stuff first. Ammo, practice, action screws torqued to proper specifications and action screw holes not collapsed or wallowed out, practice, proper and well defined shooting rest while at the bench, practice,cool barrel between shot strings, subsequent shots should be from the same barrel temperature as the second shot taken, practice, try several 10 shot groups, this often defines if a inaccuracy problem is actually the rifle or the rifle driver, practice, scope, do a box/tracking test on your scope, practice, scope mounts, both the bases and rings, make sure the screws are tight, to proper torque specifications, practice, do you shoot with a correct cheek weld on the stock, or are you holding your head up as to see through the scope? If your heads up then get a strap-on, bolt-on, tape-on, whatever cheek piece, your head HAS to remain glued to that stock both before and after the shot.... and finally.... practice!
There is more, but my finger is tired!
Good Shootin'-
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There is more, but my finger is tired!
Good Shootin'-
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
+1 to all of the above.
If you have a Model 70 in .270 shooting 1/2 MOA, don't you dare even consider changing anything.
That all your groups aren't 1/2 MOA may have more to do with you then the rifle.
rc
If you have a Model 70 in .270 shooting 1/2 MOA, don't you dare even consider changing anything.
That all your groups aren't 1/2 MOA may have more to do with you then the rifle.
rc
Just my opinion, but if you are getting 1/2" at 100 yds, then that is great for a .270. I will echo some responses by saying that the .270 is a hunting caliber, and doesn't seem to be the best benchrest.
After all, at even 300-400 yards, by your figuring, your "spread" is only about 2 inches or less, which is plety good to take a deer with...
After all, at even 300-400 yards, by your figuring, your "spread" is only about 2 inches or less, which is plety good to take a deer with...
Here's one example of cost.
http://www.precisionbarrelwork.com/
There are others out there, word of mouth, research, and recommendations will get you the info you need.
I'm kind of with everyone else though, if your rifle shoots 1/2" any variables may be you, the ammo, or the barrel heating up.
You might try using some different ammo or handloading, and see a difference.
http://www.precisionbarrelwork.com/
There are others out there, word of mouth, research, and recommendations will get you the info you need.
I'm kind of with everyone else though, if your rifle shoots 1/2" any variables may be you, the ammo, or the barrel heating up.
You might try using some different ammo or handloading, and see a difference.
earlthegoat2
Member
I consider 1.5" groups at 100 yds acceptable accuracy. Having an insatiable appetite for better accuracy is a strictly American phenomenon and one that I grew out of as soon as I started owning rifles more accurate than I was. Deer killing accuracy is all I am after and any more is a tad of overkill.
Although it has been said that "Only accurate rifles are interesting...."
Although it has been said that "Only accurate rifles are interesting...."
I guess I failed to mention that I DO reload and have had trigger work.
277 Sierra Matchking HPBT 135 gr
Hodgdon H4831 59. gr
Winchester Cases
Winchester LR, but now I have CCI Large Rifle BR-2's
Case Trim 2.53
COL 3.34
Chrono 3100-3200 fps
Winchester M70 270 Featherweight
Leupold 3*9*50 Rifleman
Anyways my last shots I took were at 430 yds and the grouping was close to 4-5 inches. Tell you the truth I don't measure because I'm not satisfied yet. Again though I guess I'm asking a little much, I mean it is a deer rifle not tactical. lol I guess I just need to get a R700 Police, put a Nightforce on it, and just end this ordeal.
277 Sierra Matchking HPBT 135 gr
Hodgdon H4831 59. gr
Winchester Cases
Winchester LR, but now I have CCI Large Rifle BR-2's
Case Trim 2.53
COL 3.34
Chrono 3100-3200 fps
Winchester M70 270 Featherweight
Leupold 3*9*50 Rifleman
Anyways my last shots I took were at 430 yds and the grouping was close to 4-5 inches. Tell you the truth I don't measure because I'm not satisfied yet. Again though I guess I'm asking a little much, I mean it is a deer rifle not tactical. lol I guess I just need to get a R700 Police, put a Nightforce on it, and just end this ordeal.
I don't know if I would go that route. Honestly there are much better calibers for 500 yards than the .308. Nightforce is a great scope as well but is built for tactical use more than hunting or range use. It wouldn't be the first scope I picked for a hunting/range rifle though they are really nice.
The first thing I would do if you want better more consistent tiny groups would be to add more magnification. I can't see well enough at 9x to shoot sub MOA at 400 yards. It won't be a guarantee to shrink groups but it probably wouldn't hurt. It won't make the rifle as usable in the field which is a draw back for sure but if target size is what matters magnification can't hurt. Its a trade off you have to consider. A 6.5-20 would be my choice for a range majority field minority use rifle but 6.5 is probably on the high side of what you would want for deer hunting.
The first thing I would do if you want better more consistent tiny groups would be to add more magnification. I can't see well enough at 9x to shoot sub MOA at 400 yards. It won't be a guarantee to shrink groups but it probably wouldn't hurt. It won't make the rifle as usable in the field which is a draw back for sure but if target size is what matters magnification can't hurt. Its a trade off you have to consider. A 6.5-20 would be my choice for a range majority field minority use rifle but 6.5 is probably on the high side of what you would want for deer hunting.
Honestly, my next rifle will be tactical and have 1k capabilities. Obviously the 308 wouldn't be my first choice for 1k, but is still capable and up to 800 yds with reloads to be very accurate. I don't plan on taking bear so my 270 will handle everything else, as with any hunting scenario shot placement is key.
I agree with you, but most hunting shots I have taken have been from 50-200 yds and the 6.5 would make things difficult when you have a 2-5 second window. The 270 is perfect with that 3*9 for hunting shots although I'd rather have a BDC recticle, it gets the job done. I guess I just need to get a different rifle for the range and accuracy I want.
I was a little confused on how far you shot. If you are pushing 1K then the .308 is an ok option. A problem with some "tactical" rifles is that with short barrels you are limited on the loads that will keep the round above the transsonic level at 1k yards. I think some loads will keep you supersonic at that range but the longer (ie not 20") will make it easier.
As for the scope that's the problem with wanting a hunting scope and a target scope in one. They don't match up very well. Its hard to shoot 1/2" groups consistently if you can't tell the difference in 1/4" change of POA due to the lack of magnification. Personally I would take the rifle with the scope on it for what it is. It isn't a bench rifle and it isn't a bench scope. You can't expect to pull bench rest groups consistently with a hunting setup. Getting sub MOA if not occasional 1/2 MOA with a hunting rifle and scope is about as good as it gets. If you want better you are going to have to go the way of a more target oriented setup. I agree that a 3x9 is great for 50-200 yard hunting if not even a little much on the magnification. But at that range you need to hold 3 MOA and not 1/2 MOA so that last 1/4" doesn't make much difference.
As for the scope that's the problem with wanting a hunting scope and a target scope in one. They don't match up very well. Its hard to shoot 1/2" groups consistently if you can't tell the difference in 1/4" change of POA due to the lack of magnification. Personally I would take the rifle with the scope on it for what it is. It isn't a bench rifle and it isn't a bench scope. You can't expect to pull bench rest groups consistently with a hunting setup. Getting sub MOA if not occasional 1/2 MOA with a hunting rifle and scope is about as good as it gets. If you want better you are going to have to go the way of a more target oriented setup. I agree that a 3x9 is great for 50-200 yard hunting if not even a little much on the magnification. But at that range you need to hold 3 MOA and not 1/2 MOA so that last 1/4" doesn't make much difference.
Uncle Mike
Member
I have always found it interesting concerning the magnification opinions of scopes.
Would you think a 2-12X50 scope would be too much scope for eastern whitetail hunting? Many do, and would say that all one needs is the 3-9X40 for such venture.
Cost aside, and focusing on magnification and dimensions only...
I ask.. is the 6 power of the 2-12 any different(from the field use standpoint) than the 6 power of the 3-9 scope.
Just because one has the power does not necessitate the use thereof.
Today's scopes are close in that a 2-12 can weigh in at a mere once or two more than a 3-9, and exhibit the same external dimensions.
Having more magnification at you disposal can be a real boon at times.
So if said shootist decides he would like to 'reach out'.. the fact that he has another 3X magnification to work with will be a great asset.
It's like having to much money, or to many firearms...hehehe
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If that's the case then should we all run 6-20x scopes since 6x is still 6x and we may want to reach out there? At some point you find the low end to be acceptable and the high end to be enough. You can pick your own range. I like larger FOV for medium to large game. Varmints from a few hundred yards is a little different story.
I don't see many 2-12x scopes out there. A 6x erector is massively pushing it. It seems the Bushnell 6500 line takes a bit of flack for the optical quality with that big of a magnification range. I have heard the glass is identical to that of the 4200 line which many people find exceptional for the price yet the 6x erector limits the clarity. I don't have any experience with the 6500 or any other 6x erector scopes but it seems to be pushing it for even quality optics.
I don't see many 2-12x scopes out there. A 6x erector is massively pushing it. It seems the Bushnell 6500 line takes a bit of flack for the optical quality with that big of a magnification range. I have heard the glass is identical to that of the 4200 line which many people find exceptional for the price yet the 6x erector limits the clarity. I don't have any experience with the 6500 or any other 6x erector scopes but it seems to be pushing it for even quality optics.
The r700 police I want will have a 20-26 barrel so that shouldn't be a problem. I know there are better rounds for 1k, but the 308 is versitile, has moderate recoil, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg for ammo. I reload too so the 308 has a lot of options and can be very accurte with reloads. Also if need be the round is large enough to shoot larger game as well.
Uncle Mike
Member
'Should we' all run 6-20x... there is no set rule, run what you brung type thing, if the big stuff crimps your bullet, then fine, if you prefer the small stuff... no problemo... there is no right or wrong answer here.
Totally agree... I hardly ever use more than 6x while deer hunting, now vermin... that's a different story.
Well let's see... Swarovski Z6 and Z6i line, Burris Six-X line and a couple no name brands.
You are exactly right with your statement that the 6x erector is quite the optical load. Even with the Swarovskis there is, albeit non existent, a reduction in clarity.
As the guys at Burris said( with regards to the Six-X)... this was the direction that the market(read consumer) led us in. Wonder if they (Burris) was trying to be seen at the same level as Swarovski, even if it wasn't the best thing to do? hehehe
Nope... I was not by any means insinuating that one must, or even should use the 'big' magnification scopes... just musing in the opine that this is what I find comforting while at the bench or afield.
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Vern Humphrey
Member
While you can glass bed the barrel, that's rarely done. Glass bedding is usually combined with free-floating the barrel. The tang of the receiver and the recoil lug are all you need to glass bed. Some people will glass bed the first few inches of the barrel. Others will put a dab of epoxy a few inches behind the end of the forearm, and put several layers of masking tape on the barrel, with two holes cut at 135 degrees and 225 degrees (assuming 0 degrees to be vertical.)
When the epoxy sets, this forms a sort of V-block arrangement near the end of the forearm.
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