need advice and opinions

[david_the_greek]

ok sorry first off, this type of thread is ofcourse always overdone and usually pointless. I am having zero luck though in my recently appointed quest of finding the right BP gun for my friends fathers christmas gift. I know NOTHING about BP firearms. This is going to be a firearm for hunting of michigan deer in the lower/midwest of the state. would anyone care to inform me of the "maximum effective range" of a BP rifle. He wants something that can reach out and touch. it is a non centerfire area. price aside, what are some recommendations on more info and specific guns that can reach out to a few hundred yards. thanks alot guys, if theres anyone who I can rely on I know its THRers

 

[Aries-]

its hard to get a traditional BP rifle that you can "reach out and touch someone" with. its generaly how far you can see and aim with iron sights thats the determening distance.

if he is wanting to use a scope. then he will need a newer muzzle loader a tompson center or knight or what have you. i wouldent call them a real muzzle loader but thats just me lol.

is he wanting a traditional black powder (like a flint lock or a cap lock) or is he wanting a newer sabot shooting muzzle loader ?.

 

[Steve499]

Some of the traditional side-hammer muzzleloaders can be effective out to extreme ranges. A Whitworth or Volunteer rifle is actually probably better at longer range than the in-lines due to the ballistic coefficient of that long 550 grain bullet. They are going to be more costly, though, and heavy but they compare to an in-line like Sophia Loren does to Rosie Odonnel.

Steve

 

[Aries-]

yeah but whitworths are bloody expencive lol

dixi has them forsale for a min of $800 american. the most expencive is 1199 or so american
a bit much for a gift i think

id love to find a whitworth thats cheeper or even a kit for one. but i havent.

 

[arcticap]

There's plenty of longer barreled, fast twist rifles that claim to shoot 200 yards. It all about how much money a person wants to spend, what kind of action they prefer and how much they are willing to experiment with premium bullets and powders. Then a person can start to narrow down the search for a rifle model based on their preferences.

Here's a Knight Long Range Hunter with "guaranteed" accuracy, but who wants to buy it?

http://www.knightrifles.com/catalog.aspx?catID=Muzzleloaders

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Features6.html

White Rifles:

http://www.whiterifles.com/store/category.cfm?Category=1

Remington's new Genesis:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/muzzleloaders/

www.Kahnkegunworks.com (30 inch barrel available)

http://www.markesbery.com/intro.htm

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzModernInline.php

http://www.tcarms.com/sitemap/

 

[david_the_greek]

thanks for the great info so far. I think he'd probably want something with the sabot shooting capability. i'll have to talk to him and see what kinda money is actually willingto spend. he wants to glass it thats for sure. I think he has some pretty unrealistic ideas of what a muzzle loader is capable of. he spoke of some gun shooting 1000yard shots . now I haven't been through the corp sniper program so I have no illusions of shooting out to those distances. I really didn't think it possible to do such shots with a muzzleloader. I called shinanigans but kept it to myself. that knight looks nice but wow these things can get pricey. then you have to get some glass.... too rich for my blood.

 

[Aries-]

im sure a muzzle loader will shoot 1000 yards. wether you could hit the broad side of a buck at that distance is another matter entirely. only the new inlines come with scope mounts. and a lot of scope dont work out to 1000 yards without spending a pretty penny on one. (most hunters wont take a shot at 1000 yards anyhow especialy for a deer)
im not sure about the storage laws in the states, but a muzzle loader up here in canada must be stored the same way as any other firearm and storing it on the wall in a case would get you arrested. it hasta be in a safe.

 

[arcticap]

There's also that new Savage smokeless powder muzzle loader, not as difficult to clean. It can be used with regular black powder too, but then why buy one? Are those even legal in MI?

 

[Plink]

There is long distance black powder competitions and they shoot to 1000 yards, so with the right rifle and load combo, it can be done. You're into the high dollar Whitworths, Gibbs, etc. though. I doubt they'd be useable at anywhere near that range for hunting and I also doubt you could put a scope on them very easily.

 

[Aries-]

plink. ive come up with a way to make sort of a hidden scope mount for black powder rifles. i gotta get one made. it would require some carving in the barrel groove so that it would fit. but after that its detashable so you can go from scope to no scope easly and all thats visible are 4 mount points along the side of the barrel.

i hafta get a BP rifle to do it to first il let people know how it works.

 

[J.T. Gerrity]

'course, there was always Billy Dixon, who shot an Indian off his horse from a distance of nearly a mile using a .50 caliber Sharps B.P. cartridge rifle during the battle of Adobe Wells in 1874. Billy always allowed as how it was a "scratch" shot, and it has been said that the Indian was not killed but merely "dazed" by the spent slug, but, still, an impressive accomplishment for a B.P. rifle.

 

[BBA]

The Savage is a great rifle but smokeless powder is not legal in Michigan. Bolt type rifle are nice and I have a few but there are many parts to clean. Side locks are fairly easy to clean and can use sabots but not the pellets. Any more the break-action guns seem like the best. Although not high end like Knights, Whites, & TC's the CVA does a decent job if you want to try to get into blackpowder and won't break the bank.

 

[gmatov]

Steve, I like your promotion of the Whitworth. Seems it's too high priced for most of them here. Me too, so far, but I am tempted.

Were you able to DL "The Story of the Gun", by Tennent, before the site went down?

Billy Dixon might have made a shot at near a mile. Would have taken some luck, but still possible. And, an ounce plus of lead that could "reach out and touch someone" at that distance would still have some energy left to kill, not just daze,the human target.

Whitworth tests ran to 1800 yards. Still hitting the target, and that is OVER 1 mile.

BP is NOT short range, 50 yard, guns.

Sights are, however, important. If you can't sight it in, you might as well stick to 50 yards. Still might miss, but you can blame twigs and the like

Since I don't know, just what KIND of accuracy ARE you sabot shooters getting? Inches or feet at 100 yards?

Cheers,

George

 

[mykeal]

gmatov - I get 2" 3-shot groups at 100 yards with a scoped 50 cal Traditions Lightning shooting 295 gr Powerbelts and 90 gr 777. This is only slightly worse than what I get with a scoped 30-06 Winchester 70 shooting 180 gr Winchester White Box; that's kind of how good I am (not). At 200 yards, however, the Traditions opens up (4-5 inches) and is not comparable to the Winchester in my hands. I would not take a 200 yard shot with the Traditions; I consider it a 100 yard and less weapon.

BBA/Articap - The Savage would be a legal weapon for whitetail in Michigan during the regular firearms season but has been ruled illegal for the muzzleloading seasons.