sansone
Member
18" barrel pump shotgun. 12ga or 20ga
Need advice on what to buy for Home Defense
- Thread starter newbie4homedefense
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oldfool
Member
any 12 ga pump gun will do
any "service caliber" handgun will do
least desirable option for you would be a carbine, in your described situation, but stick with a pistol caliber carbine if you really want that
handguns -
any basic 38/357 4" to 6" barrel DA revolver is about as basic as it gets, very versatile re: choice of load, and easiest for new shooters to acclimate to, point-n-click
Lots of police trade-in models and nice used guns in your price range, check out deals on Buds on-line, or J&G sales, etc.
post to revolver sub-forum if interested enough to pursue that option, it's a pretty frequent topic there
any "service caliber" handgun will do
least desirable option for you would be a carbine, in your described situation, but stick with a pistol caliber carbine if you really want that
handguns -
any basic 38/357 4" to 6" barrel DA revolver is about as basic as it gets, very versatile re: choice of load, and easiest for new shooters to acclimate to, point-n-click
Lots of police trade-in models and nice used guns in your price range, check out deals on Buds on-line, or J&G sales, etc.
post to revolver sub-forum if interested enough to pursue that option, it's a pretty frequent topic there
mdauben
Member
Given the situation you describe, my choice would be one shotgun for HD (Mossbert 500 or Remington 870, 12ga 00-Buck, reduced recoil loads if necessary), and one handgun each for SD while walking the property (my choice would be either Glock or Smith & Wesson M&P in 9mm, loaded with any premium SD JHP). The 500 and 870 are proven, reliable HD guns and with a bit of experience all but the smallest women should be able to handle the widely available reduced recoil buckshot loads. The polymer service pistols are relatively inexpensive, very easy to find cheap used "police trade ins", and reliable. The 9mm caliber is a good SD round if you use the premium SD hollow points, and practice ammo is cheap and easy to find.
After buying the hardware, though, as others have said don't forget the training. Having a gun might not do any good if you don't know how to use it effectively.
I know that would blow your stated budget, so I would probably buy the SG first, and then add the two HGs as finances permit. If you buy used, you could probably get all three for around $1000-1100.
Certainly worth having and AFAIK easy enough to obtain in FL, but since they are talking about HD and SD while working on their buisness property its not really a necessity.
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There is an awesome amount of information in this thread so far, but I have to ask a couple questions.
Is this storage facility something you own, or is it a corporate operation and you just manage it while living on site? Your OP makes me believe the latter of the two. While I would disagree with it, does the corporation have rules against you arming yourself?
It is obvious that you understand that it is not your responsibility to protect the property, but I would only be afraid if you have signed a contract and were placed on the coals when someone watching one of the video feeds busts you investigating a "bump in the night". If it is something the company does not allow, I would still get weapons to defend your home, but refrain from investigating the property while armed (meaning - I wouldn't investigate at all).
Is this storage facility something you own, or is it a corporate operation and you just manage it while living on site? Your OP makes me believe the latter of the two. While I would disagree with it, does the corporation have rules against you arming yourself?
It is obvious that you understand that it is not your responsibility to protect the property, but I would only be afraid if you have signed a contract and were placed on the coals when someone watching one of the video feeds busts you investigating a "bump in the night". If it is something the company does not allow, I would still get weapons to defend your home, but refrain from investigating the property while armed (meaning - I wouldn't investigate at all).
newbie4homedefense
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APROSODY HIT IT ON THE HEAD!!
I do have a contract and we would NEVER roam the property armed and on foot.
My only intention is to prepare for a disaster in the event that someone entered the domicile but I don't think it would be tactful to keep correcting people.
As far as a bump in the night goes I have the good fortune and good sense of living in FL where WHILE IN MY VEHICLE I could at least hope to lean on the CASTLE DOCTRINE but I am not a gun guy and I am not looking for trouble or to go beat the bad guys!
I do have a contract and we would NEVER roam the property armed and on foot.
My only intention is to prepare for a disaster in the event that someone entered the domicile but I don't think it would be tactful to keep correcting people.
As far as a bump in the night goes I have the good fortune and good sense of living in FL where WHILE IN MY VEHICLE I could at least hope to lean on the CASTLE DOCTRINE but I am not a gun guy and I am not looking for trouble or to go beat the bad guys!
WinThePennant
Member
And, why would you not want the ability to fire through walls?
A bad guy comes into my house, he's not going to be safe because he hides behind a door or a wall. I want penetration. This whole notion of being terrified of your bullet going through a wall is pure stupidity run amok, IMHO.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Castle Doctrine type laws are very good things. They extend a small but important umbrella of protection to someone defending themselves in certain circumstances.
The way they generally work is to REDUCE the number of things you must prove (ie. have evidence to show) when you present your case for the necessity of your violent actions. Usually they work such that if the intruder was forcibly entering, you don't have to prove that he had a weapon, or prove that his intent was to kill you, and/or prove that you tried to retreat to the last possible point before firing your weapon.
They are a cushion or safety net to help you make your "affirmative defense" of self-defense. They aren't something to "lean on." What I mean is, they are not any kind of expansion of when assault or homicide (of the intruder) is lawful. You should never be running a "when can I shoot" checklist in your head that -- "as soon as X or Y happens the Castle Doctrine allows me to kill this guy."
Your focus is still and always, when do I have NO CHOICE but to shoot or my life (or my loved ones' lives) are forfeit?
mdauben
Member
Any worthwhile SD handgun or shotgun is going to be able to penetrate interior residential walls, there's no need to go to a rifle round to accomplish that.
Not at all. In a rural setting a HD carbine may have some merit, but IMO in an urban setting (and the OP did say he lived in Orlando, FL), a round from an AK for example is quite likely to go through all your walls and continue on for extended distances with more than enough power to kill or seriously injure a neighbor.
sansone
Member
quote: a round from an AK for example is quite likely to go through all your walls and continue on for extended distances with more than enough power to kill or seriously injure a neighbor
_________________________________________________________________________
another reason to use a shotgun
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another reason to use a shotgun
mortablunt
Member
^ Note: each buckshot pellet is roughly equal to a single 38 Special round. Combine that with a higher number of projectiles and the greater muzzle velocities of longarms, and you have a weapon that can still kill through cover.
It is pretty much a fact of physics that any weapon which is powerful enough to kill a person reliably and effectively is also powerful enough to go through a wall with enough energy to still be dangerous.
It is pretty much a fact of physics that any weapon which is powerful enough to kill a person reliably and effectively is also powerful enough to go through a wall with enough energy to still be dangerous.
Shotguns fit your budget easily. If you go with a handgun, I'd look for a used Glock or a Used .357 revolver, both of which are in your budget as well. Rugers are reasonably priced and built like tanks. If you were patient and did some stop by's of local shops regularly, you could get both for not much more than $500.
Ideally, I'd have a shotgun to keep at home, and a handgun to carry when out on the property.... or you could be the crazy guy who walks around with a shotgun. Once word got out about that you might find less people wanting to come snooping around
I kid!
Ideally, I'd have a shotgun to keep at home, and a handgun to carry when out on the property.... or you could be the crazy guy who walks around with a shotgun. Once word got out about that you might find less people wanting to come snooping around
I kid!X-JaVeN-X
Member
For home defense, especially for someone new to firearms, I'd recommend you get exactly what I just got for my mother a couple months ago. The remington 870 with 18.5" barrel and extension to hold 7 rounds. Get it in 20ga as that is plenty for defense and load it with some #1 buckshot. Practice with birdshot. It tends to be a lot cheaper to learn on than larger caliber handgun ammo. The action is so smooth on the 870. You can always add a handgun later for CCW but get a shotgun first for your home. The 870 I'm referring to is below. You can buy it brand new for under $400. I think I paid about $380 at my local gun shop out the door with taxes and all.
Mike1234567
member
Regarding Kel-Tec; For $500 you can come pretty darned close to buying a P-11 for each of you. If you decide to get your concealed carry permits and if the company you work for allows it then you can carry those while working for 24/7 protection. I'd opt for a pump shotgun if you only intend to have it for home defense. Actually, I'd buy two subcompact 9mm (like the P-11) for carry AND a shotgun for home. But that really blows your budget.
Get a sultry and or a.pistol caliber carbine...preferably one that shares ammo/mags with your pistol...example Keltec SU series and appropriate sidearm(I.e.Glock,S&w,Bwretta)...or a .357/.38 revolver with 3-5inch barrel and a.lever action carbine in the same caliber...maybe a RELIABLE .22lr semi aouto rifle and a big mag stoked with high/hyper velocity solids or HPs.More importantly(and I know you already said Jou would) TRAIN and PRACTICE.....oh,and have fun-your comfort /familiarity level will only help.as.it improves.Glad you have a good dog-maybe get another(Huskies are SO cool!)....I had Dobies and PBTs with good results/memories-YMMV.
Well, the excellent mossberg Maverick(SP?) 12 pump can still be had for less than 200.00.I have one and it is one of the best things,not just guns, for the money I ever bought. For a pistol, just get a used nine or .38. I think for your situation a revolver might be best. Good luck. Are there good parts of Orlando?
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DogLegArms
Member
I own a Maverick 88 pump action 12 ga. I've shot hundreds of buckshot, birdshot, and slugs without a problem. It's affordable, dependable, and will get the job done. I believe they go for about $200 these days. The only mod I would invest in is a recoil butt stock pad. It makes a hugh difference.
My opinion on handguns is this....try as many as you can before you buy. You might be surprised what works for you and your wife.
My opinion on handguns is this....try as many as you can before you buy. You might be surprised what works for you and your wife.
Bobson
Member
There's a difference between being terrified, and using common sense.
You may want to be able to shoot a guy through a wall and kill him, but I love my family too much to take the risk of even slightly wounding them through one. The only thing stupid is being willing to take that risk.
WinThePennant
Member
So, go ahead and compromise yourself. Limit yourself to bullets that don't go through walls. I guarantee you that the bad guy will not.
What good are you to your family once you're dead?
Please, save the emotional hokum. Suggesting that I love my family less because of my ammo choice is a joke.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Alright chill. No one need argue who loves their family more.
Most ammo that will penetrate enough to reach and destroy vital structures inside a bad guy will penetrate building materials as well.
Some will penetrate LOTS of building materials, some will penetrate less. Lots of testing has been done on the subject with some surprising results. (Some loadings of 5.56mm/.223 that are very effective on soft targets do indeed stop shorter in wallboard than many handgun rounds.)
All of this seems to be a lot of worry over the wrong issue. Counting on your ammo to not penetrate building materials is not the right way to preserve your family's or your neighbor's safety. That's best handled by having a good defensive plan laid out ahead of time which defines the approach paths you'll defend and ensures your fire lanes will be clear of friendly folks.
On the other hand, choosing a defensive firearm based around the INTENT to shoot though walls or other obstructions is not sound, either. Even in a life-or-death defensive situation, you must identify your target and what's behind it. In the instance that he's taken partial cover behind an interior door frame or sheetrock wall, and your bullet impacts that instead of him, even a 9mm or 00 Buck is going to pass through that scant bit of structure. You don't need to choose a high-penetration rifle round to accomplish this, and the instances it might be deliberately attempted should be almost nonexistent.
Test yourself, carefully measuring speed and accuracy, with any defensive weapon you might use, and in the most realistic setting you can create. Then use the one you get the fastest, most accurate hits with. If that's a handgun, use it. If that's a shotgun, use it. If it is actually a carbine, use that. Everything else is a far, FAR distant second in importance.
Most ammo that will penetrate enough to reach and destroy vital structures inside a bad guy will penetrate building materials as well.
Some will penetrate LOTS of building materials, some will penetrate less. Lots of testing has been done on the subject with some surprising results. (Some loadings of 5.56mm/.223 that are very effective on soft targets do indeed stop shorter in wallboard than many handgun rounds.)
All of this seems to be a lot of worry over the wrong issue. Counting on your ammo to not penetrate building materials is not the right way to preserve your family's or your neighbor's safety. That's best handled by having a good defensive plan laid out ahead of time which defines the approach paths you'll defend and ensures your fire lanes will be clear of friendly folks.
On the other hand, choosing a defensive firearm based around the INTENT to shoot though walls or other obstructions is not sound, either. Even in a life-or-death defensive situation, you must identify your target and what's behind it. In the instance that he's taken partial cover behind an interior door frame or sheetrock wall, and your bullet impacts that instead of him, even a 9mm or 00 Buck is going to pass through that scant bit of structure. You don't need to choose a high-penetration rifle round to accomplish this, and the instances it might be deliberately attempted should be almost nonexistent.
Test yourself, carefully measuring speed and accuracy, with any defensive weapon you might use, and in the most realistic setting you can create. Then use the one you get the fastest, most accurate hits with. If that's a handgun, use it. If that's a shotgun, use it. If it is actually a carbine, use that. Everything else is a far, FAR distant second in importance.
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Mike1234567
member
Over-penetration vs. enough penetration...
My compromise is #4 buckshot for the first two rounds followed by #00. I keep in mind where I might need to discharge a shotgun and, if I had to fire anywhere near the general direction of an innocent person, I'd just drop lower and shoot slightly upward. It ain't that complicated.
My compromise is #4 buckshot for the first two rounds followed by #00. I keep in mind where I might need to discharge a shotgun and, if I had to fire anywhere near the general direction of an innocent person, I'd just drop lower and shoot slightly upward. It ain't that complicated.
PreMod70
Member
Nobody has mentioned the Judge or the Governor, the latest hot potatoe in HD. Unless you are a very good trainer stay away from big dogs, a little yeaper is all you need. Also if you do go for the Mossberg be sure and shoot the shells you plan to use before loading them for defense; a lot of Mossbergs have trouble ejecting 3 inch shells even though they are chambered for the 3 inch, all's well with the 2 3/4 shell and that is all the power you will need. The best deal for H/D is a hacksaw and a older Model 37 Ithaca pump, the best pump ever made and can be bought cheap, I mean cheap.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah...I thought we were doing pretty good with that, and you had to go and spoil it.
Hot potato? Like you don't want to be the guy stuck with one?
22-rimfire
Member
If you are not a "gun guy", I think you're better off with a 12 ga pump shotgun. I would not get some shortened pistol gripped shotgun or something like a shotgun revolver like the Taurus 45/10 (Judge or Governor); get one with a a traditional design stock. Better if it is a police type shotgun which hold more shells. Shotguns are easier to shoot with some accuracy. I would buy some 00 ammo, but I would also consider in a general sense any pellet size larger than #4 as pretty good self defense medicine. You both need to shoot the gun for familiarity at a minimum. I would buy some cheaper game loads to shoot and get very comfortable with the functionality of the gun. It is important that you know exactly how to work the shotgun and even better if it becomes almost instinctive. I hunted a lot with pump shotguns, so the gun functionality becomes almost something you don't really think about. This is why I would always choose a pump shotgun and they are quite dependable.
A handgun like the Hi Point might work just fine. You need learn to shoot it fairly accurately (6" circle at 7-10 yds). And you will need to know how to load and unload the gun. If you buy a Hi Point or any handgun for that matter, shoot it enough that you are confident that it will function reliably. I would tend to lean more toward a medium sized Glock in 9mm or 40 S&W. On average, they work every time and are simple to operate safely.
(Added) You basic 38spl revolver is also a good choice and pretty simple to operate. Buy used, but you can get a new Ruger for about $500.
Taking a class would not be a bad idea especially if you are leaning toward handguns. You will learn about gun safety in almost all classes and that is very important.
A handgun like the Hi Point might work just fine. You need learn to shoot it fairly accurately (6" circle at 7-10 yds). And you will need to know how to load and unload the gun. If you buy a Hi Point or any handgun for that matter, shoot it enough that you are confident that it will function reliably. I would tend to lean more toward a medium sized Glock in 9mm or 40 S&W. On average, they work every time and are simple to operate safely.
(Added) You basic 38spl revolver is also a good choice and pretty simple to operate. Buy used, but you can get a new Ruger for about $500.
Taking a class would not be a bad idea especially if you are leaning toward handguns. You will learn about gun safety in almost all classes and that is very important.
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we are not amused
Member
It appears you have your head on your shoulders.
Posters have almost as much differences in opinion about home self defense and the proper weapons for such as there are posters.
But here is my opinion.
1) A rifle shooting .223 Remington/5.56 (AR15 or Mini-14) simply because it doesn't penetrate walls very well, of course that is some what beyond your price range.
2) A Shot gun loaded with bird shot. Either 12 or 20 gage. If you hit your target at home defense ranges, it will be as effective as buck shot, but you don't have to worry about people who are walking down the sidewalk on the opposite side of the road if you miss your target and shoot the wall. I would go with either a pump or semi-auto depending upon your comfort level with the type of gun. Both have advantages and disadvantages.
3) A 9mm or .45 acp pistol. Pistols are easier for inexperienced people to shoot than revolvers.
And get some self defense training, as you indicated you intended to. In fact I wouldn't buy a gun until I had talked to a self defense trainer, if your only reason for getting a gun was home self defense. And by the way, I do mean a self defense trainer, not a gun dealer.
Me, I just like guns, self defense was always a secondary consideration, I just adapt my current inventory to what I think is needed under the circumstances.
we are not amused
Member
My complaint about 00 Buckshot is that it penetrates too well. At home defense ranges, buckshot is overly penetrative. Anything that doesn't hit the target will penetrate multiple walls, even exterior walls. Bird shot is much less penetrative, and will certainly get the job done at home defense ranges, and is less likely to exit the house to endanger people out side it.
According to test, .223/5.56 ammo tends to breakup when it hits sheet rock and will not penetrate multiple walls. I consider that to be a good thing. I don't want to worry about hitting the neighbors house if I miss.
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