need advice- property issue

[madhatta]

…wasn’t really sure where this fit, but it concerns a ‘social situation’ and I felt that people on this board, for the most part, think and act logically and legally, and I don’t want my emotions to get the better of me in this situation.

Background: About 4 years ago I bought a modest house on about 6 acres of land, I have just recently bought an ajoining 10 acres. When I bought it, the owner informed me there was a tree stand in one corner of the lot. I did not buy the place to hunt on it per say, but I left the stand there. The land is all wooded, and the corner where the stand is joins the land of a guy who is a real @sshole. Myself and my neighbors have plenty of evidence to this fact. The guy doesn’t like hunting and even told me to my face that he “bought a place in the country to have quiet, not hear guns.†His land is a rather large tract, and his house is about a mile from my place separated by dense woods and somewhat rough/steep terrain, so I hardly think myself and my neighbors target shooting with small caliber handguns would bother him that much.

The problem: Recently I found the stand was destroyed. Every piece of wood. Now, the lines and the corner of my lot are clearly marked in this area. Myself and my neighbors feel he is the only one that would do such a thing. All the neighbors on the road to my house are hunters or hunter-friendly. To make matters worse, this guy acts as if he has some kingdom and forbids anyone coming near it. My neighbors 4-wheel and he has also expressed severe displeasure with that and made some rather bold statements concerning any 4-wheeler coming near his land, and how he would deal with it if that happened. So, he has this history of being very particular about his land, his boundaries, and his hundreds of posted signs, yet it appears he crossed onto my small lot and did this act.

What should I do ??

Sincerely
Madison

 

[Langenator]

Legally, unless you've got hard proof that he did it, there's not much you can do.
If you want to see if he'll do it again, and catch him this time, buy a scouting camera (available from Cabela's among others) and then rebuild the stand. Set up the camera to watch the stand-they're motion activated, and will give you still photos of him on your land and messing with your property.

If you want to really get under his skin, ride the noisiest 4 wheeler you can find back and forth along his property line early in the morning.

 

[Pendragon]

I have a friend who owns 20 acres in rural El Dorado County just out of Sacramento.

He had a similar problem only the jerk in question was poaching deer off everyones land - he almost got caught and then started using a bow - they find gut piles and he acts real suspicious, but so far no hard evidence although the authorities are involved last I heard.

The stealth camera is probably the best idea - if you can get him like that, then you REALLY got him.

I would not only make the stand, but I would set up a target range near by and make it pretty inviting for him to destroy.

Ultimately, even if you catch him red handed, its probably not much more than a minor misdemeanor - only then he is out for revenge big time and you gotta really watch your back.

You might try the high road and invite him to come plinking on your land and try being exceptionally nice to him.

See, you can't control his behavior or his attitudes, but I bet he desperately WANTS to dislike you - nothing confounds such unpleasant people more than unflinching, unwavering kindness.

I found this out in 8th grade when I had a teracher that I thought really did not like me - my mom said I should just see if I can make her like me - so I smiled at her all the time and said nice things to her - even when she criticised me and nit picked at me. Also made her cookies at Christmas, stuff like that.

Eventually, I won her over and she began treating me very well - smiling back, greeting me kindly, etc.

She had the authority, but I found out who had the power.

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

YMMV

 

[LoneStranger]

Have property surveyed and have boundaries clearly marked. This should always be first move in any property dispute. Eliminates misperceptions, misconceptions, and faulty beliefs and clearly establishes where everyone stands.

Second, you should have in your possession all relevant laws/regulations on trespass, protection of property, and limitations on use of said property. This allows you to make informed decisions on proper responses. Most of these should be available without going thru a lawyer and getting them can get you introduced to the humble people that enforce said items. Always good to develope inside tracks.

Lastly, never try to P/O next door neighbors without a reason.

 

[CGofMP]

So, he has this history of being very particular about his land, his boundaries,

I can not fault the guy here. It is infact HIS property, so I'd not find myself chafing on this count.

However if he destroyed YOUR property, then he needs a lesson in decency and being neighborly. I VERY much like the idea of the camera and getting him in photos. In addition there are chemical agents used by police and others that can be sprayed or painted on things which will not wash off someones hands and WILL be visible under black or UV light but that are nto visible in daylight or flourescent.

This stuff IS expensive but....

You could paint the hell out of the stand with this stuff and then when it gets broken, loan the responding officer the light. Let them go have a talk with your neighbor and in the course of the conversation shine it on him.

He could get caught "green handed"

I feel sorry for you having a neighbor like this and angering a neighbor in the country is not a positive thing as you all should be able to rely on each other... but if he is impinging upon the legal use of YOUR property, then for you the value of your land has gone down.

However, as another has posted - turning him from a gunphobic to an ally would be the best of all worlds.

Charles

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Lastly, never try to P/O next door neighbors without a reason.

And if all that fails, declare all out war!!
Set up that shooting range, and shoot alot!. Invite all your friends to shoot too.
Invite all your friends over to hunt. Every hunting season that exists. Don't forget about coon hunting. Nothing like the sound of braying hounds at night to warm the soul.
Build a four wheeler track so the local kids will have a safe place to ride. It would be a nice thing to do for the community.
I imagine there are probably some dead or sickly trees which need to be thinned out. Got a chainsaw?
No one tells me what I can do with my property (unless they have more guns than me).

 

[fix]

I see no reason to believe that he had anything to do with the incident you describe. He is well within his rights to be an ???????, and is well within his rights to demand that folks respect his property.

 

[ARperson]

is well within his rights to demand that folks respect his property.

Yeah, we can all demand all we want. Whether there's a legal basis behind it or not doesn't have to stop that. What it does stop is this guy's ability to act on his threats.

If you want to catch him, follow the others' suggestion of the camera. You might want to call authorities now though and set up a history of vandalism being done.

As far as property rights go, he can't do a damn thing about 4-wheeling, shooting, or hunting if it's done on private land (obviously not his) or public land that allows it (zoning and ordinances, that kind of thing.)

 

[madhatta]

Set up that shooting range, and shoot alot!. Invite all your friends to shoot too.

That made me laugh, as my first thought was to build a backstop right at the location of the former treestand and make a little rifle range.

I see no reason to believe that he had anything to do with the incident you describe.

I never said that I was 100% sure he did it. For that I would have to have an eyewitness or photograph. I don't claim to KNOW he did it, nor would I make such a statement. However, based on my frame of reference of this event and the factors involved, if he didn't do it, then about the only other likely scenario is that aliens landed on my property and wanted an example of a treestand and took it home with them.

Its a small world everywhere, especially in the country. I and my neighbors know things about this guy. My mechanic has worked on this guys cars. This @ss even went to my mom's doctor's office and she was his nurse. You can get a feel for folks and infer what they are about and what they would or would not do.

And as far as HIS property rights go- by all means, he can do whatever the hell he wants. That is correct. BUT, for someone who has made such a stink about 4-wheelers riding in a floodplain of a creek that is NEAR his place (not ever ON IT)-- for THIS type of person to then go and do something to someone elses property, is reprehensible in my opinion.

 

[fix]

Ahh, I see. I misread the earlier post and assumed (there's that word) that they crossed onto his property. As to his guilt or innocence, you know more about him than I do. Use your best judgement. I would probably put the stand back up.

 

[AJ Dual]

I see it's all been said:

Surveyor:

Fence:

Hidden game Camera:

Also, Military seismic intrusion rigs can sometimes be found military surplus. They're little vibration sensing boxes on stakes all connected with several hundred yards of wire to a master alarm/control box.

One other idea is if you know someone who welds. Make a deer stand out of angle iron or square tubing, mounted in concrete piers that go down to below frost line for your area.

He'll need a portable welding rig, a gas powered cut-off saw, or a big truck to make a dent in that.

I also like the idea of shooting right along the edge of his land. Just check the county ordinances about shooting, usually just xxx yards from any structure etc. if you live in unincorporated territory, and perhaps see if you can invite any deputies to see your backstop berm etc. before the complaints roll in.

 

[BSlacker]

Bait the boy. Make sure he sees the new stand maybe two stands if you need the camera angle. Make sure you have the camera well hidden. See if the others will chip in for the cost.
We don't know if he did this but someone who violates their own law ,property rights, if it is him he came onto your property and destroyed something opposite his spoken word. I would not advise any routine that would get him worked up until you can find out about this incident. Had a guy that lived behind me destroy 2k worth of wall because he didn't like the neighbors mud on his property well I didn't like either that is why I built the wall. I took him to small claims court and won because he admitted too a neighbor the truth and they stood up for me. Cost him big. You need to be in control, from control you can win, and not do any funny business. Remember you are under attack by somebody and you need to start finding out who.

 

[Russ]

If legal, you should get yourself a .50 cal muzzle loader and do alot of target practice with it near his property line. They make lots of noise!

 

[Jarrod Hartsfield]

This guy can say whatever he wants, but if you are on your property, and you’re within the law, tell him to piss off.

He can complain all he wants, but there is noting he can do.

Survey your land and erect a sturdy barbed wire fence.

If you are determined to catch him, the camera is the way to go.

Even if he only gets nailed criminally for trespass and destruction of property, both misdemeanors, you can always sue him in civil court for damages. For most guys like that, a large monetary loss is the biggest burn.



Good Luck,

Jarrod

 

[sumpnz]

different kind of property issue

I've mentioned this to some THR people outside of THR in the past, but I would like some other input as well.

My propert issue is that my next door neighbor has at least 9, probably 10 by now, and maybe 11 dogs. They are all 70-120 lbs, and except for the ones still too young, all have been spayed/neutered. I live in a neighborhood that has minimum (and typically) 1.0 acre lots. There are no laws requiring kennel licenses or anything like that. Their yard (and mine) are fenced in the back portion. My wife and I own 2 dogs (Germ Shep/Chow mix) that are well trained, usually don't bark (much - and we're pretty good about stopping them if they do), and are liked by all neighbors.

My issue with the next-door neighbors is that their dogs tend to bark, a lot, in the middle of the night . I've rang their door bell at 2AM several times to complain. They usually fall over them selves to appologise, claim they'll fix the problem, and they do. For a few weeks. Maybe a couple months. Then it's back to as before. :banghead:

The cops, for all practical purposes, won't do anything about the noise nuissance. If that was the only problem, I'd probably just let it go. Alas, there's more.

I've been chased by their dogs twice now, while on my own property. In part because of that I now own a .40S&W pistol. My dogs have been attacked by theirs while walking down the street (my pregnant wife was knocked down by the ensuing mele). We were going to report the attack, but there were no injuries (to wife or dog) and we would have been fined for having our dogs off leash. Never mind that they are so well trained they don't need one, and came back as soon as recalled by my wife as they chased off the offending dog.

They have made attempts to contain the dogs with mixed results. It has been probably a couple, maybe three months since I've seen them out of the fenced area. However, it's only a matter time IMO before they find another escape route.

Now that our dogs are licensed, and we always have them on leash, at least while walking past that house, if anything ever happens again, I'll nail their butts to the wall (and if armed shoot their attacking dog(s)).

In the meantime, what recommendations can I solicit from the peanut gallary on how to get the neighbors to understand that they need to respect my rights to be relativly undisturbed and unmolested by their dogs. The rest of the neighborhood is just as pissed at these people as I am about their dogs roaming, and if near enough, barking.

 

[brookstexas]

Do they sell

Claymores in your area?

 

[Pendragon]

sumpnz

We were going to report the attack, but there were no injuries (to wife or dog) and we would have been fined for having our dogs off leash.

Never mind that they are so well trained they don't need one, and came back as soon as recalled by my wife as they chased off the offending dog.

Now that our dogs are licensed, and we always have them on leash, at least while walking past that house, if anything ever happens again, I'll nail their butts to the wall (and if armed shoot their attacking dog(s)).

You have an interesting perspective. Your account is somewhat colored in your favor in a way that minimizes any lawbreaking on your part as insignificant and seems to maximise anything they are doing as egregious.


As a practical matter, if you are in an incorporated area, there are often laws about how many dogs can be kept, etc. If they are within the letter of the law, you do not have a lot of options.

Your last hope may be a nusiance case - probably a civil suit. You would have to talk to a lawyer, but if their dogs are too noisy, you may have something.

Finally, you seem to have a beligerant attitude about shooting their dogs which knocked down your wife - but did not seem to bite anyone. Yet you let your dogs run off a leash because of course your dogs are special/trained/harmless/etc.

Sounds like really really bad mojo brewing there buddy. I recomend you simmer down a notch. Shooting their dog will make them and possibly a lot of other people really hate you - may even bring charges and a civil suit and you may begin to experience all sorts of unexpected consequences (tires slashed, dogs poisoned, etc).

Your best bet is to move.

 

[sumpnz]

First off, the dog in question is not one that any neighbors have had good experiences with. The one that knocked over my wife was the same one that chased me, twice. It's the same one that's caused problems for other neighbors.

My dogs went through an intensive 10 week training course, and came in 2nd and 4th (out of about 20) in the obediance competition at the end of the class. All of the neighbors, including the next door neighbors, like my dogs, and neither have ever been a problem. We let them run off leash in empty desert, where there's no-one for them to bother. We leash them where necessary, and otherwise they well behaved enough that I trust them to heel off leash.

None, as in zero, of their dogs have been though any training of any sort. That was confirmed to me by the owner of the dogs.

I would ONLY ever even consider, let alone act on, a possibility of shooting one of the their dogs if it actually did injure me or mine, or acted VERY aggressivly (i.e. charging) on my property, or while on a public road. Otherwise I just try to get the dog back on its own property without resorting to violence. I didn't say, by the way that noone was bit, just no injuries. My dog was bit (her collar was ripped off in the process), but she did not require a vet visit as no skin was broken.

We live in unicorporated county land, so there's nothing per se that I can do about the number of dogs they own.

I might consider moving except that I really can't afford to, and besides, who the heck is going to buy my house now that they've moved in next door? I've been in this house a little over 2.5 years. They moved in less than 8 months ago after getting run out of their previous neighborhood as a result of the dogs.

Ironically, if they got rid of all but one dog, the one I'd want them to keep is the 120# rottie/pit bull mix. That one is a sweetheart. It's their labs that are dangerous.

The last thing I EVER want to do is fire my gun at a person or their dog. I'd FAR FAR rather resolve the situation peacefully, but if it comes down to me or mine getting hurt, or shooting a dog, sorry Fido (and that applies if my own dogs ever turned on somebody, including that neighbor - yes I would shoot my own dog if that was absolutly necessary to save another person from harm - I'd hate it, but even my jerk neighbor is worth saving in that situation).

In general he's not that bad of a guy, but with the dang dogs he just doesn't seem to take his responsibilities at all seriously.

I really miss my old neighbor.

 

[sumpnz]

BTW, with regards to the barking issue, I've offered all of the cinder blocks I have (40+) and my time to help get a block wall put up on the shared property line, but he hasn't taken me up on that offer yet. At least with a block wall up we'd be shielded from some of the noise, plus at least some of their barking is becuase of being able to see my dogs in the yard. About 90% of the time my dogs will sit and watch their dogs, but not bark back. My dogs used to get into barking matches with their dogs, but we put a stop to that pretty fast.

My wife and I have also offered to help them tile their house so that they can keep some of their dogs indoors more often (their carpet is about shot after less than a year in that house due to the dogs). That offer hasn't been taken up either, yet.

Until they get a block wall up, or at least some deep concrete filled trenches under some chain link (they have field fencing right now) I just don't see how they'll be able to guarantee their dogs will stay contianed in the yard. We've seen them tag team to dig under the fencing, and even to spread the wire enough to squeeze through.

 

[sumpnz]

Oh, one other thing,

minimizes any lawbreaking on your part as insignificant and seems to maximise anything they are doing as egregious

Any lawbreaking on my part is actually pretty insignificant. Not haveing my dogs licensed (although all their vaccinaitons, including rabies have always been up to date) at the time is not an arrestable offense, nor is having well behaved dogs off leash. I could have ticketed and fined, but those are not even lowest level misdemenors. In fact, one could argue that I've paid my fine for that in the form of a late fee on each registration.

If their dog harms anyone, or worse, depending on the exact circumstances, it could be a felony (e.g. manslaughter).

Also, I have modified my behavior to be in compliance (i.e. dogs are now taged and leashed when near other houses). They are only increasing the number of dogs they own, are not training them, and while I will certainly credit them with making attempts at keeping their dogs contained, they still have not gone as far as will ultimatly be required to ensure safety in the neighborhood.

 

[Pendragon]

Hmm,

I was on the fence, but your calm, measured replies have won me over.

When I lived in Alaska, we had about half an acre just out of Wasilla and the people behind us had sled dogs.

I am sorry to say, but my friend and I would creep back there at night and make little noises to set them off

It was fun and the owner would come out and yell and crack a whip (not whip the dogs).


Anyway - I digress.

If you are really desperate, perhaps some kind of ultrasonic deterrent? Perhaps an electronic dog whistle with either a bark sensor or a remote button.

Higher frequency sounds tend to be very directional so you could probably just aim this gizmo at the neighbor dog area without disturbing your own pets.

Perhaps if every bark session was joined by "Mister Whistle", they might become less frequent.


Not sure on the ethics and legals on that - IANAL - but I think it is worth a shot.

 

[sumpnz]

Cool, I'll have to look into that. My wife, bless her ruthless heart, was thinking about a cattle prod. Of course that only works if they're trying to tear through the fence to bite her (which they do whenever we have to do yard work on that stretch), or barking their heads off right at the fence line.

Speaking of my wife's ruthless heart, while we were visiting family in Oregon I nearly slid off the road (it was kind of icy) when she commented on how much she wished she had a rifle when she saw several deer off the side of the road . I think this pregnancy is having some good side effects

 

[CGofMP]

/don clerical garmets (sorry preacherman)
/place and climbe onto soapbox
/begin speech

I am really having reservations about the dog poster. Wanting to shoot the dogs in the street (sans a deadly or great bodily injury attack) wanting to zap them 'at the property line' with a cattle prod, etc etc....

All I can say, is prepare for your arrest (at minimum).

If I catch you in the act of zapping or or injuring my dogs while they are on my side of the property line and you'd have to talk to the nice local police officer or if more agregious you might get to see a doctor about a new medical issue.

Your original charactarization of the folks was thus:

"My issue with the next-door neighbors is that their dogs tend to bark, a lot, in the middle of the night . I've rang their door bell at 2AM several times to complain. They usually fall over them selves to appologise, claim they'll fix the problem, and they do."

It sounds to me like they are reasonable, even NICE people and while I could certainly fault them for their training and control, I would think that you could exhaust less violent or derrisive solutions before resorting to glockin their dogs in the middle of the street or letting the little lady light up their canine lives with a cattle prod.

Listen to that little voice of reason that is being over-run by your emotion on this issue.

Here endeth the sermon.

/remove soapbox
/line soapbox with asbestos
/crawl inside soapbox

 

[sumpnz]

CgofMP,

Firstly, I don't think you'll need the asbestos

Anyway, in case you didn't throughly read the posts, I said that absent a direct threat of bodily injury, the gun would be kept out of the situation. See quote below.

I would ONLY ever even consider, let alone act on, a possibility of shooting one of the their dogs if it actually did injure me or mine, or acted VERY aggressivly (i.e. charging)

The cattle prod remark was intended more humorously than you took it. While my wife did actually mention doing that, it was not serious and made more out of exasperation at the incessant barking, bite attempts through the fence, etc. But, they do try to bite us through the fence, and if the dog's head is completly through the wire, and extending onto our property I see no reason not to respond in a manner that prevents the dog from causing injury (usually we just move back, though once my wife was obligated to hit the dog as she could not effectivly retreat)

Also, I won't ever be "glockin" their dogs. Mine is a Ruger, thank you very much . Never mind that I almost never carry the gun unless I'm on my own property, and am worried their dogs might be roaming.

It sounds to me like they are reasonable, even NICE people

The guy is what I like to call a serial appologizer. He says he's sorry, but never follows through for long enough (yet anyway) to retain credibility. Note the couple of sentences following where you ended the quote.

Listen to that little voice of reason that is being over-run by your emotion on this issue.

Hence my request for further ideas on how to peacefully resolve the situation. If I was being "over-run by my emotions" I'd have already shot the dogs (in situations most would have considered justifiable). I was at least trying to convey my desire to avoid that outcome.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

This is in response to the original post:

If the stand was on the property line you share with the "suspect", the first, and most reasonable step, would be to approach him and ask if he knows anything about it. I would then express how I felt about someone violating my land, with reference to how he feels about his.

At the least you might get some information, or a denial you could use later. At best, an admission. Or even sympathy. How you handle it after that is up to you.