Need help. Been thinking about a 10mm project.

[Demitrios]

I've been wanting to a compact 10mm for carry on the 1911 platform but so far everything I've read has said the same thing, timing problems and cracked slides/frames. (Yes I know Dan Wesson made a 10mm CCO but they're damn near impossible to find and way too expensive if you did).

So I kept thinking about it and wondered why is that Glock was able to pull this off. After a bit it came to me, polymer frames are what make them have a lot easier time handling the pressure and recoil from a 10mm.

I know of a few companies that make poly-framed 1911's, STI, SVI, Bul to name a couple. Does anyone know of any that make them compact?

If I could find a compact double stacked polymer 1911 frame which barrel should I use? Would I have to reem out a compact .40 S&W barrel? Would a linkless system be better? What type and how heavy should my recoil spring and guide rod be? Can the frame be bobbed (is it even worth it)? What kind of mags could I get and if I can't which ones can be modified?

If anyone would like to chip in and help on this one I'd love to have ideas bounced off this.

If anyone just wants to tell me it's a stupid idea (without giving me a sound explanation) or just wants to tell me to buy a different gun, please move on.

 

[nonamehavei]

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Para-LDA-t111820.html
This looks like what your looking for.

 

[ATLDave]

Interesting idea. I don't have any idea if it will work, but if you go down that road, keep us posted.

 

[Zak Smith]

Have one built on an SV/STI frame. Shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Demitrios]

I was actually thinking about doing it on a Charles Daly Bul M-5. . . why? Because I just bought one like new for $500.

 

[m1911.10mm]

I don't know nearly enough about the issues you bring up to respond. I have to buy mine already built.

As far as the magazines go, I sure wouldn't let possible non-availibility stop me. I use .45 mags in my 10mm. This because the slide on my WC 10mm will not lock to the rear on a WC 10mm mag.

It feeds and locks to the rear perfectly with any .45 mag.

edit - After posting, I re-read your post and noticed you reference a double stack frame. My post really may not apply then.

.

 

[Demitrios]

I have my pistol the next step is picking out a new barrel and slide. Is it possible to fit a commander slide and barrel to this frame or will I have to stick with an officers size?

I'd prefer only deal with forged products, that said who's a reputable manufacturer that makes forged 10mm 1911 barrels and slides? Is it a preferable to get a linkless barrel?

I'm assuming I'll want stronger springs, recoil (depending on barrel and slide length), hammer and mainspring. Anyone recommend a company and weight springs that should be used?

 

[Strykervet]

I hope I can help. I'm a 10mm afficianado and I load for 10mm, I have some rounds to work on tonight that I am working up. A few things you need to know.

You get all the problems because the 1911 is designed for a 21,000 PSI cartridge (and that is on the high end I believe) and if +P ammo is punishing to the pistol then...

The 37,500 PSI that the 10mm generates is going to be downright destructive. I personally believe the cease of manufacture of the Smith/Wesson 10mm auto and introduction of the Colt Delta Elite is the reason factory 10mm ammo is so light.

The 1911 is a great platform, but it just wasn't designed for this round. In particular the barrel and slide. I can't recall the numbers, but I read the 1911 has the thinnest wall around the chamber of any 10mm pistol, the Glock is in between, and the Smith autos were the thickest made. This is between those three pistols, not sure where the EAA and the Bren fall in and frankly, I don't care. The 1911 also has the barrel locking lugs on the shroud and these contact the slide and transfer all that force directly to the slide, which itself is rather thin and delicate, and so I can see how cracks can be a problem with 10mm 1911's. I don't think a polymer frame is going to help, and in fact, I can see it making it worse due to lack of support and increased twisting during firing.

I have a G20SF and a G29, both 3rd gen barrels, and so the support issue isn't really an issue. I've loaded max loads and shot from both and no problems with the brass (although I only load max loads in new and once fired brass, after that it becomes target brass, lighter loads only). The only issue is that it ejects far with high power loads and requires a stronger spring, so if you get a 10mm Glock and plan on shooting real 10mm loads, get a stainless rod with a screw so you can change springs. I have a non-captured titanium one for the G29, the captured titanium one I have is just too light with factory springs. But they always function, no matter the ammo, no matter the load.

The Glock G20 was also a purpose built 10mm like the Smith, the G21 is an overbuilt .45 based on a 10mm design and not the other way around. The G20 handles the 10mm cartridge really well (and explains why my G21 is so tame). If you just want a nice 10mm, it is hard to beat a G20SF (with regular mag release!!!) with 3.5lb connector, stainless recoil rod with 20lb spring, and adjustable night sights.

A fun project would be getting one of these, and then getting a .50GI conversion for it... I'd like to do that one day too, the .50GI is low pressure and I bet it works real well in the Glock.

I plan on getting a Smith 10mm, it is at the top of the list of new pistols, I wish I could say more about it but I can't other than I hear it is THE 10mm tank. Either way, good luck.

 

[Demitrios]

Stryker, I appreciate your help but two things; I've actually been shooting 10mm for a few years now and have been reloading for it just as long, while you're dropping me valuable information it is information I've already researched and know about. The other thing is I started this thread so I could get some advice on a specific project I had in mind. While I do appreciate your post I'm not interested in buying another gun, I'm interested in working on the project I had in mind.

 

[ugaarguy]

I personally believe the cease of manufacture of the Smith/Wesson 10mm auto and introduction of the Colt Delta Elite is the reason factory 10mm ammo is so light.

Stryker, The Delta Elite was introduced before the S&W 10xx series came out. Both were discontinued very close to each other. Factory 10mm ammo is weak because the FBI had it downloaded because most of their agents couldn't handle the recoil - in the S&W 1076.

1911Tunner, BBBBill, and Mac's Precision gave me some great info on how to properly set up a 1911 for 10mm use here - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=620760. Demitrios, that thread was in regard to 5" bbl 1911s, obviously, but it should give you a good formula to build from.

 

[Demitrios]

ugaarguy, I do own a 5" 1911 in 10mm, while not what I was looking for, this is some very handy info that I didn't know about, thank you for that.

Edit: Wow, very, very enlightening read on the 1911 and mechanics. It really put to rest and debunked a lot of myths that I took for truth. Thank you very, very much for that ugaarguy.

 

[ugaarguy]

Demitrios, I'm glad it helped; but Bill, Tuner, and Mac are who deserve the credit. I was just the ignorant gun geek who asked the initial question. BullfrogKen has a Commander in 9x23 Win (really high pressure cartridge) that gunsmith Jim Garthwaite built for him. A PM to Ken, and an e-mail to Mr. Garthwaite should provide even more good info for your project.

 

[mortonman]

You may want to contact Fusion Firearms. They offer kits and complete pistols. http://www.fusionfirearms.com/ My Fusion 10mm is great!

 

[Casefull]

I have various 10mm and the strength issue everyone always brings up with 1911's is a bunch of bull. You just need the proper springs. The barrels on 10mm are thicker than 45 barrels so the pressure issues are not the problem you all make them out to be. Do you actually think one steel barrel is weaker than the next? The eaa witness compact I have in 10mm is not that strong of a pistol and it does not "blow up" I love 10mm but think a properly loaded 40sw does similar velocities(with short barrels) with a lot less expense and with a lot of choices in platforms. You will find that the shorter barrels negate much of the gain you get with extra powder capacity of the 10mm case. I would bet you will have trouble getting more than 50 fps with the 10mm over the 40sw with the shorter barrels. The primer pockets do not enlarge as much with the 40s loaded hot as the 10mm cases do. Not trying to talk you out of your plan just passing on some of my own experiences. Losing one inch from barrel length is huge when you are trying to burn all the powder in a 10mm, I know as I have experimented with both cartridges, different barrel lengths, recoil springs, powders, and chronographed it all. Good luck with conversion.