Need help choosing...

[R100]

Hi - I'm a new member and need some help choosing a shotgun.

Here's what I know so far -
1) I don't want a 12 guage (40 rounds left me sore and badly bruised).
2) I am quite sure my small size (and age 64) requires a "youth" model as both a Rem. 870 and a Moss. 500 felt too long. A 20 guage Rem. 870 "youth" I shouldered felt correct.
3) Usage is best described as "occasional fun" - skeet, popcans, pests, a small clay pidgeon launcher, and if need be, home defense.

Here's what I don't know -
1) Never fired a 20g or a 410.
2) Always assumed that Remington was "tried and true", and Mossberg was "very good value". Just read some posts about Rem. Express ejector problems, and also worry if the Moss. aluminum receiver is safe.
3) The pros and cons of a pump vs. an o/u or side-by-side? I usually think simple is better, but it seems that good 2 barrel guns are expensive, and affordable 2 barrel guns are pretty rough. (I had trouble opening a Boito o/u and the gunshop said they refuse to carry the Mossberg o/u).


So there you have it. I am trying to avoid buying the wrong gun, but so far it is quite confusing.
Any sound advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[Snarlingiron]

1) I don't want a 12 guage (40 rounds left me sore and badly bruised).

A couple of things. First one of the main ways to reduce perceived recoil is to get a gun that fits you correctly. You stated that you felt that the one that you were shooting did not. What load were you shooting from the 12 ga? The range is huge. From very light 3/4 oz target loads to 3" heavy buckshot loads that are absolutely brutal.

Recoil is a function of the weight of the payload, the powder charge and the weight of the gun. A light gun will deliver more "punch" to the shoulder than a heavy one. This is of course a trade off. If you are out in the dove field all day, a little more felt recoil can be worth not having to carry a 9 pound gun around.

Due to the fact that most 20 ga guns are lighter than a 12 ga, you may perceive more recoil from a 20 than a 12 with approximately equal loads.

Of the choices that you provide, the .410 will certainly deliver less recoil than the 12 or 20, but again there are trade offs. You will be putting less shot down range, and the patterns are tighter. This means that it is harder to hit what you are shooting with it. Also a consideration is ammo cost. The .410 is going to cost you a lot more to shoot than the 12 or the 20.

2) Always assumed that Remington was "tried and true", and Mossberg was "very good value". Just read some posts about Rem. Express ejector problems, and also worry if the Moss. aluminum receiver is safe.

Either would be a fine choice. Do not fear the aluminum receiver. Many of the worlds finest semi autos are aluminum receivers. At 64 I seriously doubt that you would be able to wear out a Mossberg in your lifetime if you shot every day for the remainder of your life.

Given the choice between an affordable pump and an affordable side by side double, I would choose the pump. That's just me.

My best advice is get to a range, and chat with some experienced shooters. You will find them an affable lot that are usually willing to let a novice try out their gun (guns). This way you can make a more educated choice about what might work best for you.

Good luck.

 

[Tim the student]

There are others here who know far more than I do, but I can tell you that the 12 you fired probably didn't fit you well at all. I bet it is the gun that hurt you, not the gauge of it. Unless you are very small in stature, I would guess that a youth model will be too small.

If you want a smaller gauge, I wouldn't go for anything smaller than a 20. Unless you are a good shot, with a good fitting gun, a .410 will probably just frustrate you. Ammo cost is up there for .410 too.

Is there are a range near you that will rent out guns for you to try? Do you have friends who shoot? Maybe you could borrow theirs.

You will probably get lots of votes for 870s and 500s. They are both good guns. I myself have an 870, but I don't have anything against Mossburgs. My brother in law has a new 870 that hasn't had any problems.

The main issues with doubles is that it is hard to get both barrels to shoot in the same spot (at a given range). A lot of the cheaper doubles won't do this well. Some may, but most probably won't - and they won't look as nice as the more expensive guns. I can't speak of their durability, but I bet they won't last like the more expensive guns. Their capacity is obviously limited too - which is ok when out shooting recreationally, but not what I want for home defense (nor do I want a 30" barrel either).

Also, you are trying to get a gun that will be good at everything, which is about impossible. A good gun for trap or skeet will not be good for things that go bump in the night. However, you can find a gun that will do everything adequately.

Would you mind posting what kind of gun it was that you shot (ETA: and the ammo as SnarlingIron pointed out), your budget, and more about your physical dimensions? (Doesn't need to be too specific, but if you are 5' with proportionally short arms, that is a factor.)

Oh, welcome to THR!

 

[Ratdog68]

Before you rule out the 12ga... consider a stock that absorbs a significant amount of recoil before imparting the remainder of it to you. And... has the adjustablility built in to help fit it to you. Knoxx SpecOps is an example of such a stock. I just added one to my Winchester 1200 Police riot gun. Mine is chambered for 3" magnum, and I've done repeated solid slug and 00-buck loads for a few hours straight in days gone by... so, I understand the affects of a day's worth of shooting, and a need to go do it all again the next day.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SpecOps-Adjustable-Shotgun-Stock,1158,165.htm

They offer some good video clips to illustrate the recoil reduction features too.

 

[chas08]

A 20 guage Rem. 870 "youth" I shouldered felt correct.

It sounds to me as though you have answered your own question

Always assumed that Remington was "tried and true", and Mossberg was "very good value". Just read some posts about Rem. Express ejector problems, and also worry if the Moss. aluminum receiver is safe.

Yes Reminton has had som QC issues but not every gun is bad. Mossbergs aluminum reciever is plenty tough enough. I would choose which ever one that had the best ergonomics and fit. The wildcard is that when comparing recoil betwen a 20 and a 12, I don't find them all that much different because the 20 is usually a lighter gun. In fact I've shot 12's that had less felt recoil than most 20's. Recoil is relative to the weight of the gun, weight of the shot charge, and velocity. Not so much the gauge.

 

[rmfnla]

I always love when the "aluminum receiver" thing comes up!

Every Al receiver shotgun I have ever seen has a steel-to-steel lock-up. The bolt engages directly into the barrel; the receiver is not subject to any of the firing stresses.

Buy the shotgun that feels best to you; any major brand will be good.

 

[WVMountainBoy]

Ladyfriend just got a 870 Youth in 20, have over 200 rds through it with no malfunctions and seems to pattern well with #4 buck. Its a good looking gun too, which is just a bonus. Gave 289 at Gander Mtn for it NIB so I'm sure there are better prices and sales to be had. It has the choke system so its a versitile weapon.

 

[R100]

All good info so far, thanks for the help.

The 12 guage that beat me up was a friend's Remington Wingmaster. He has a clay pidgeon slinger and I believe he had brought some form of target load shells.

Interesting about the price of 410 ammo. Never would have occurred to me.

As to the youth model question - the person in the gun shop had me stand the gun vertically in the crotch of my elbow and see if I reached the trigger comfortably. The youth model (LOP 13 inches) was about perfect.

I have an appreciation for good machinery so the 2 Boitos I handled bothered me. I would imagine Bailkal are the same, built like old Russian cars.

This maybe dumb but I don't embarrass easily. Could a used Mossberg 500 have the L.O.P. shortened to 13" to create a "youth" model? Is that the only difference?

 

[chas08]

This maybe dumb but I don't embarrass easily. Could a used Mossberg 500 have the L.O.P. shortened to 13" to create a "youth" model? Is that the only difference?

It's not dumb. Yes, if its a wood stock it can be shortend by a competent Gunsmith. With synthetic it is usually cheaper to buy a replacement stock. Remington and Mossberg both offer youth length stocks in wood and synthetic ready to bolt on

 

[oneounceload]

+ however many for all of the suggestions about fit; second shoot light loads, third, get a plain wood stock fitted with a good recoil pad to the proper fit.(it all comes back to fit).

As for aluminum receivers - many companies, including Beretta, have been using those materials for DECADES. They stand up. One gun writer friend has over 300,000 through one of his 303s - still works fine - keeping a good spring and shooting loads that don't beat it (or you) to death are key for longevity.

There is more to fit than just the length of the stock and can vary widely depending on your personal body style. There is also pitch, cast, drop at heel, drop at comb, etc. - something those AR-style stocks may not allow you to tweak, whereas an adjustable target butt plate device will.

For everything you mentioned EXCEPT HD, the 410 would be fine and fun - throwing the HD into the equation means stepping up to at least a 20 or a 12. A semi-automatic gas-operated gun will help in reducing "felt' recoil. As mentioned previously, weight of the gun, velocity and mass of the ejecta will determine actual recoil. A gun that fits will reduce "felt" recoil.

Good luck

 

[winchester '97]

i would only reccomend the recoil reducing stocks if its not for serious high volume use, the pachmayr gel pad is a great cheap slip on, and the 20 guage sounds like the ticket for you, i would say try different youth guns and buy the one that you like best. Also Baikal are built very well, the break actions are a little stiff, but very nice and break in with use, and the semi auto is extremely reliable.
Basically as long as its a working firearm of good quality its a matter of personal preference and how much you want to spend.

 

[Moose23]

Welcome. Great question. How well the gun fits you is most important, which means make sure you are shouldering & holding with a firm grip, butt in the "pocket" of your shoulder. Any experienced shooter...that you trust....should be able to observe & correct any problems you have there.
Like a lot of the others have said, shoot lighter loads to reduce recoil. Weight & action play a role, i.e. heavier guns have less "felt" recoil. You can have a stock cut down to fit you, and allow for a recoil pad to be added.
A dependable pump gun that FITS YOU would probably last you forever, and give you something to pass on to kids, grandkids, whatever. My brother & I get a lot of satisfaction shooting & hunting with guns that belonged to our dad, uncle & granddaddy.

 

[hammerklavier]

A gas operated autoloader like the 1187 will also have a little less perceived recoil.

 

[mnrivrat]

I have both a Remington 870 , and a Mossberg 500 in 20 ga. I consider them of near equal standing & either one will serve you well.

I too shoot the youth models and have used 20 ga. for many years for everything except waterfowl. The recoil issue is simple, don't try to turn your 20 ga. into a 12 ga. , and that will take care of it.

Home defense is also simple as long as they continue to make #3 buckshot in 2&3/4 inch loads, they will take care of business with the energy of about two loads of .357 magnum.

 

[Black Knight]

There are also low recoil buckshot available for the 12 guage. I have some for my Remington 870 Wingmaster I keep for home defense.