Need help ID S&W revolver

[Doc Savage]

I acquired this revolver from my father who passed away and am trying to find info out on it. Unfortunately I can't seem to connect to S&W's site to get info but found some good info here in searching so thought I'd give you folks a try.

The gun is a S&W .38 five round revolver with a top break and ejector for the cartridges. The serial number is 345665 on the butt of the handle. On the top of the barrel (3-4 inch I believe) is Smith & Wesson, Springfield MO Model 91 then several patent dates (date formats appear to be Month DD,YY and would appear to be from the 1800's as they are like 70's and 80's).

Dad had said that the revolver came from my grandfather possiably obtained during his service in WWI. He thought it had been destroyed when the house burned in 1961 and reported it lost then, but found it later when going thru the house (it didn't go to the ground). There is still a lot of silver plating on the revolver and the grips show no major wear so no real damage in the fire. It is operational as my brother and I did fire several rounds in the 70's once, and I recently took it out and fired a few rounds. I'd really like to be able to trace some of the history of this revolver, but don't even know when it would have been manufactured or anything. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Robert

 

[Jim Watson]

I am confused.

Is this a single action or double action revolver?

A Model 1891 is a single action but they only made 28,107 of them, numbered in sequence.

A double action .38 no 345665 would be a S&W .38 Double Action Fourth Model made from 1895 - 1909, probably early in that time span; 4th Model serial numbers started at 322,701, ran to 539,000.

If a double action, treat it gently with little if any shooting or dryfiring. A S&W collector of my acquaintance said they are about as delicate as a Colt Lightning, which is saying a lot. Another friend has one in pieces on the shelf with a broken and irreplaceable part.

 

[Doc Savage]

Jim,

Thanks for the quick reply. Yes it is a double action I believe (not an expert here, that is it can be cocked, then fired or a single trigger pull will perform both actions).

From your statement, sounds like a 4th Model judging from the serial number. So possiably from the 1800's. Sounds like we've been lucky, I remember as a kid checking that it was empty and dry firing it like crazy to see what a real gun was like. Last time I fired it was out on our property and I pulled off 3 shots in rapid succession and it fells real smooth and easy. I'd thought about keeping this for personal protection when out on our land in TX (there are mountain lions and wild pigs out there), but may need to look into keeping this for display and getting something else for that.

Robert

 

[Old Fuff]

During the time period in question S&W only made two top-break .38 models that meet this description. One was the .38 Double Action in Jim's post, and the other was the .38 Safety Hammerless that had an inclosed hammer, was double action only, and had a grip safety on the back of the handle. If this isn't what you have then Watson's information in post #2 would be correct.

It is an interesting revolver, and was very popular at the time, but today it is much more of a collectable then a shooter.

 

[Jim Watson]

They didn't make that many Safety Hammerless .38s to have a SN over 300,000.

There is some interchangeability of S&W barrels. I know you can find No 3 and DA .44 barrels on the "wrong" frame, maybe you have an 1891 barrel on a 4th DA action.

 

[Doc Savage]

Thanks for all the info. Thought I'd post some pics (hope this works) in case that might help.






Thanks guys.

Robert

 

[Old Fuff]

They didn't make that many Safety Hammerless .38s to have a SN over 300,000.

True, they Safety Hammerless ended at 261,493, or there about. But without a picture there was some question as to exactly what model was under discussion, regardless of the serial number. That's why I said that if the Safety Hammerless wasn't what he had (which was the only other double-action possibility) then the information you offered in post # 2 had to be correct.

Barrels are sometimes serial numbered, but often not. however the barrel latches were, and this will tend to indicate if the barrel on a particular frame left the factory that way. Also, S&W always used up old or obsolete parts if they could. In those days there wasn't such a thing as a tax write-off.

 

[Jim K]

Interesting. That gun is not the Model 1891. Since the Model 1891 (38 SA Third Model) is uncommon, and its barrel was marked Model 91, there are warnings about the interchangeable barrels from DA revolvers showing up on the Model 91. But of course, interchangeable works both ways, and this gun is a .38 Double Action Fourth Model, with a Model 91 barrel.

(BTW, the marking is Springfield, MA, not Missouri)

Jim

 

[Doc Savage]

So I've got a tossed salad revolver (well it goes with the tossed salad 46 jeep)

At first I was superised, Dad and Granddad didn't seem like the types to have work done on a gun like that. Then I remembered, Turner Kirkland the past owner of Dixie Gunworks was related to us somehow (Dad's uncle/greatuncle I believe) so I guess it is possiable.

Robert

 

[Doc Savage]

Oops, was working from memory when I first posted and just remembered Springfield, automatically assumed MO not MA.

Thanks for all the info.

Robert

 

[Jim K]

Those parts have been together a long time. The basic gun was discontinued in 1909, even before WWI. It was never a service revolver, but could have been carried by a soldier (rules were a bit looser then) or served in some other way. In any case, the barrel change might have been done even before your grandfather obtained it. Some folks suggest S&W might have used up leftover Model 1891 barrels by putting them on those guns, but as far as I know there is no evidence to confirm that.

BTW, the plating is nickel, not silver. Nickel plating was very common in those days, and many more revolvers were nickel plated than were blued. As tastes changed (about after WWI) and nickel became more expensive, gun buyers began to prefer bluing. Still, S&W retained nickel plating as an option until quite recently. I don't know if they have any nickel plated guns still in the line or not.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

A number of .44 New Model Russians are known that have (for that model) 4" non-standard barrels. To make them S&W used .44 Double Action barrels where 4" lengths were standard.

Barrels would also interchange between the .38 Double Action and the Safety Hammerless, although they used different barrel latches.

 

[Doc Savage]

Thanks for all the info. There is a fairly substantial gap in the life of this weapon that I have no knowledge of. I don't even really know when my father obtained it from my Grandfather (well before 1961 that is). As my Dad wasn't born til after WWI that is only hearsay that my Grandfather even got it then.

Great info here and I appreciate all the help.

Robert

 

[Doc Savage]

OK hate to bother you all again. Got a little more info today and have a question. I saw in another thread where the serial number was stamped on the cylinder, latch, and on the barrel under the latch. I looked and found that the Cylinder and latch both matched the serial number on the butt of the revolver. When I checked the area on the barrel under the latch, I found the numbers only stamped on one side. The four numbers there appear to match the serial number. Could this mean that the Model 91 barrel was a left over that was used on the revolver from the factory? Here's a pic of the barrel number and the cylinder (none of the ones of the latch came out, have to redo those I guess).



Thanks

Robert

 

[Old Fuff]

Well yes, that's an important discovery. S&W stamped the serial number (or last part of the number) on parts that were individually fitted to a particular gun, and not intended to be interchangeable on another one. Thus after they were finished (blued, nickel plated, whatever) the right parts would be put back onto the matching frame. Parts beside the frame that were likely to be so marked included, but were not limited to, the cylinder, barrel, barrel latch, and (inside) the sideplate. I would say that these parts on your revolver all match and are original to the gun.

So what about the barrel? It was clearly supposed to be on the earlier model 1891 Single Action. But there was no reason it couldn’t be fitted onto a later .38 Double Action, and Smith & Wesson wasn’t about to throw away anything that might be used. In those days you couldn’t scrap parts and then take a tax write-off.

I would get this revolver lettered by Roy Jinks at Smith & Wesson, and be sure to include copies of all your photographs if you submit a request. I doubt that there are many .38 Double Action models around that have factory-installed ’91 marked barrels, and if S&W’s historian confirmed this, the gun might take a modest to considerable jump in value.

 

[Doc Savage]

Thanks, Ok dumb question, where would the barrel be stamped? I haven't noticed anything, but then the cylinder and inside latch were not easy to see due to dirt. Took some cleaning to expose those.

Thanks

Robert

 

[Old Fuff]

If the barrel is marked the most likely place is in the small flat to the right of the latch. Lift the latch and look while the barrel is open. It shows in your picture. The latch is stamped on the bottom. To better see both numbers remove the cylinder and use a good magnifying glass.

If it makes you feel any better I can’t see them without the glass either.