Need help reloading for over headspace 8x57 S.

alnukem

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I bought a nice German Custom 98 with a rib. I slugged the bore & it was for the .323 bullet. I tried my no-go & field gauges & the bolt closed on both. I then shortened a 30-06 case running it through the 8x57 dies, bumping the shoulder back until it closed snug on it. I loaded it & shot it, no problems. How do I proceed to load 100 rounds for it? Do I take a factory 8x57 loaded round, pull the bullet & charge, remove the primer, put soft solder on the back, chamber it, then measure the compressed solder? Or do I buy new brass, neck it up to .338, size it back to 8mm until it just fits, creating a minor "false shoulder", use a starting load? I have reloaded rifle & pistol but I am not an advanced reloader. Thanks!
 
I then shortened a 30-06 case running it through the 8x57 dies, bumping the shoulder back until it closed snug on it.

Make brass using this method. I used 30-06 brass for my 8 x 57.

I would want to know the difference of the head to datum measurements of factory new vs 06 case.
buy new brass, neck it up to *.338, size it back to 8mm until it just fits, creating a minor "false shoulder", use a starting load?
I would try this, but hotter then start load. *.375" OD?

I have heard of lightly oiling rounds to be fired. Allows brass to stretch with out damage.

No experence with these methods. I had 223 brass separate with .014" stretching.
 
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Is your concern headspace / cartridge base to shoulder, or bore diameter. You mentioned necking up to .338 which I don’t understand. I believe standard 8mm bullets are .323?

If it was a factory ammo tested functional weapon, I would shoot a factory round and check the shoulder dimension with a comparator to verify how deep the chamber is. Then set my dies accordingly to minimize getting a case head separation in the future.

It may take a few firing on the brass to get them fully formed to your chamber.

Curious to hear the responses on this.
 
Try firing one factory round and measure shoulder position on the fired case vs factory. It might not be bad enough to be concerned, just size them to fit the chamber better after that.

If it is a little too much, you might be able to pull the bullets/powder, use the sizer die to squeeze the shoulder forward enough.

Worse than that, or for the second one, grease to factory rounds so they don't grip the chamber when firing and don't stretch down near the web, size to fit the chamber better after that.
 
Is your concern headspace / cartridge base to shoulder, or bore diameter. You mentioned necking up to .338 which I don’t understand. I believe standard 8mm bullets are .323?

If it was a factory ammo tested functional weapon, I would shoot a factory round and check the shoulder dimension with a comparator to verify how deep the chamber is. Then set my dies accordingly to minimize getting a case head separation in the future.

It may take a few firing on the brass to get them fully formed to your chamber.

Curious to hear the responses on this.

My concern is excessive headspace & case separation. If you expand your neck to the next biggest size (.338 common size) & then carefully resize a portion of the neck back to .323, you will leave a small shoulder which will physically stop the cartridge & upon firing, will allow the shoulder to expand without gas lose (blowing up), creating your new cartridge.
 
Put a factory round in the chamber with the gun vertical so that the case falls into the chamber as deep as it will possibly go. Close the bolt fully. Now open the bolt. If the case is extracted by the bolt then the oversized chamber dimension is very small. If it ejects I would fire that factory round and very carefully inspect the brass. You would be essentially fireform it to fit your own chamber.
 
Put a factory round in the chamber with the gun vertical so that the case falls into the chamber as deep as it will possibly go. Close the bolt fully. Now open the bolt. If the case is extracted by the bolt then the oversized chamber dimension is very small. If it ejects I would fire that factory round and very carefully inspect the brass. You would be essentially fireform it to fit your own chamber.

It is not a good practice to force the Mauser extractor over the rim of a chambered cartridge.
 
Try firing one factory round and measure shoulder position on the fired case vs factory. It might not be bad enough to be concerned, just size them to fit the chamber better after that.

If it is a little too much, you might be able to pull the bullets/powder, use the sizer die to squeeze the shoulder forward enough.

Worse than that, or for the second one, grease to factory rounds so they don't grip the chamber when firing and don't stretch down near the web, size to fit the chamber better after that.

Does greasing or oiling work????????? I understand that oil does not compress. I just found 5 Prvi factory rounds, they look good enough to try. I will remove the follower & floorplate, shooting off bags trying one. I don't forsee any problems. I think what my problem is, is using using "saami spec" gauges on a gun made before there was a "saami". In the future, if my gauges bottom out, I will use the factory unfired case/soft solder method & just measure it with a caliper. Thanks!
 
I've never had to address headspace. I reload for my T99 Arisaka and my resized 30-06 brass for my T99 looks nothing like the fireformed brass. The former has a sharp shoulder and the latter is a round shoulder. The fireformed case is much wider too. To avoid working my brass now sized to the T99 chamber, I use a Lee Collet neck sizing die. By just using this die, I can load cartridges with almost no runout. And so now I have a fireformed case that matches my chamber. Here is an issue I face and am TESTING. My T99 chamber has a lot of free bore. The resized 30-06 cases trimmed to SAMI specs were too short to seat a bullet so the COAL of the reloaded cartridge ogive would not touch the rifling. I could adjust my load and seating depth to adjust for accuracy but I didn't have the option of having a seated bullet so many thousands of an inch off my rifling. And so, I used a Sinclair case length tool to find the chamber OAL for which a case will chamber. It was longer than the SAMI maximum length. I then trimmed newly resized 30-06 cases to just under this length, seated bullets and the 150gr bullet touched the rifling. I wish the 173gr SPBT fit. Maybe I'll try a Sierra than Hornady. The cartridge I loaded would chamber and wasn't tight where a case neck was jamming up against the chamber. Again, I haven't shot these test loads yet for my test but I'm providing you information to think about. The Arisaka has a strong receiver
 
It is not a good practice to force the Mauser extractor over the rim of a chambered cartridge.
I don’t know any other way to get a good idea of what’s going on inside of an inaccessible sealed chamber as it would be upon firing. I would cast my lot on the extractor surviving being closed over a round once as opposed to firing a questionable round in the chamber without really even knowing if it’s close or not. If it’s close enough that it pulls the round out then that means it’s going to be held back at the breech face rather than slamming into the breech face or not firing due to firing pin not hitting, both of which indicate being a dangerously mismatched situation. Feeding from the magazine will feed directly into the extractor so that doesn’t really help us know anything before firing.
 
I then shortened a 30-06 case running it through the 8x57 dies, bumping the shoulder back until it closed snug on it. I loaded it & shot it, no problems
The head to datum of the fired 06 case should be measured & compared to factory ammo or new brass.

A homemade comparitor can be used to measure/compare.
 
When I fire formed my Dasher cases from 6 BR cases I seated long into the lands, with heavy neck tension, and lightly lubed the cases to hold them back against the bolt face to keep them from stretching down near the web. Works great. No way you have that much headspace either.
 
Greasing or oiling cartridges before firing is not a great idea as this increases bolt-thrust considerably.
 
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I did test fire my rifle with the 5 factory cartridges, I had with no problems. I should have saved a unfired one for measurements, but will pick up a box of the same brand. The shoulder is wider. I will post later this week with measurements. Thanks.
 
Greasing or oiling cartridges before firing is not a great idea as this increases bolt-thrust considerably.
Either way the case head is slammed against the breech. One way the brass stretches near the web to do it, the other way it doesn't.
 
Fire five factory 8x57 cartridges. Then send three of them, as well as two bullets that you are most likely to use, along to Lee to have custome collet dies made. They aren’t expensive. Worth doing.
 
Either way the case head is slammed against the breech. One way the brass stretches near the web to do it, the other way it doesn't.
In the one case the full 45kpsi acts on the bolt. In the other 20kpsi is taken up by the brass and only 25kpsi acts on the bolt. Depending on the chamber pressure and brass annealed state.
 
The head to datum of the fired 06 case should be measured & compared to factory ammo or new brass.

A homemade comparitor can be used to measure/compare.


Agree here. Use a 9mm casing and check shoulder on new vs fired.

if you are within a few thou. Let some new round fly and load for your chamber moving forward.

I can’t give advice on what is excessive stretch, but personally I would think .010” isn’t a deal breaker.

however, you will not be able to sustain that long term if you are full length sizing without being mindful of the shoulder datum.
 
In the one case the full 45kpsi acts on the bolt. In the other 20kpsi is taken up by the brass and only 25kpsi acts on the bolt. Depending on the chamber pressure and brass annealed state.
Full pressure always acts on the bolt. It’s an age old technique.
 
In the one case the full 45kpsi acts on the bolt. In the other 20kpsi is taken up by the brass and only 25kpsi acts on the bolt. Depending on the chamber pressure and brass annealed state.

Where did these numbers come from?

Greasing or oiling cartridges before firing is not a great idea as this increases bolt-thrust considerably.

This is an Army coverup over 100 years old. The Army was building M1903 in Arsenals with no temperature gauges, (except for sight springs!) and temperatures were judged by eye. Eyeballs, as Hatcher says, could not control temperature and lots of receivers and bolts were burnt. And then, there were perverse incentives in place. Forge shop workers were paid piece rate. Therefore, they had an economic incentive to heat billets as hot as they could, as that allowed them to stamp the parts out faster.

At the time, the cupronickel jackets on bullets fouled something awful. Shooters found dipping their bullets in grease absolutely prevented jacket fouling. They did not know, that the rifles they were shooting were structurally deficient. When "perfect" Army rifles blew up with "perfect" Army ammunition, the Army blamed the grease. "It increased bolt thrust". The Army claimed grease was in compressible, which it mostly is, (I don't have any bearings that work at 50K psia, so how knows at those pressures) but what they did not mention was, grease flows

30-06 before and after firing

CSsyYnp.jpg

Grease goes up the barrel, and out the chamber.

Sure oil and grease "increase" bolt thrust. So does polishing the chamber, and worst of all, adding powder to the case. This "increased bolt thrust" reminds me of the Movie Amadeus where the critics of Mozart claimed his music had too many notes. Well, what bolt thrust are weapons designed to take? And are weapons weakened assuming the cartridge reduces thrust? For the second, of course not. You don't get any meaningful reduction in bolt load unless you stretch cases to the point of case head separation. If the case does not stretch, it is not carrying load. Zero chamber clearance cases don't stretch, therefore neck sizing increases bolt thrust. Where are the warnings not to neck size?

The Army never admitted that they built bad rifles in underfunded factories, instead the Army lied about "increasing" bolt thrust and other nonsense. At the same time, the Army knew that the Swiss were using greased bullets, had to know the British were dipping their 303 Cartridges in oil, before shooting in Lee Enfields, had to know that greased bullets were used by the Austrians, the Russians, and the Italians. And, Hatcher knew of the oilers used in delayed blowback machine guns. By the time you get to WW2, the Oerlikon, the most popular 20 mm machine cannon, was using greased ammunition. I believe the Army alone purchased 200,000 Oerlkons. The Oerlikon and the Hispano machine cannon used greased ammunition and were used in planes, trains, armored vehicles, emplacments, etc, etc. The Japanese, Germans, and Italians used the things, or variations.

Why anyone should believe the Armed Forces about anything is beyond me. Marines and their families were drinking poisonous swill at Camp Lejune for decades. Many children came down with cancers and died. And it was all denied, covered up. The Few, the Proud, the Forgotten. This just happens to be a one big lie, and I don't have the time to create a known list of DoD lies and coverups. Veterans know how their chain of command acts.

One hundred and twenty plus years after lying about the cause of low number M1903 blowups, the Army shamelessly continues to promote the coverup.
From a 2019 publication:

FqdNrir.jpg

these guys are least are trying to dispel the misinformation:



So what do you believe, your eyes, or the Army?
 
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Weak or fatigued actions and over pressure is another thing entirely. We're not talking about over pressure loads. Anyone with a polished chamber who tumbles cases with polish is letting their cases slide a bit. Cases stretch under the pressure of rifle loads, stretch until it hits the bolt head/breech face. Stretching and/or sliding to the bolt face isn't any different.
 
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