Need help with S&W j-frame 22

[winchester62]

Cross-posted from the SW forum since this one might get more action...
I recently bought a Smith 63 from an auction site that has a bit of a problem I need some advise on. Of the many guns I have bought sight unseen (except pictures), this is the only one I have any regret over. It has buggered up screws and a few nicks that keep it from being in the "excellent" condition as described by the seller. Oh well. I'm not going to make an issue out of it.

The first thing I did to it was take it apart (grips, sideplate, cylinder, crane/yoke) and blast it out with brake cleaner. Even though the screws were buggered, it *looks* like the inside hasn't been beat up. With the inside cleaned up and lubed lightly with militec, I put it back together. Although this was my first time with a revolver, I have disassembled MANY guns and even done a bit of work to a few of them. I didn't pry the sideplate or bang on anything with a hammer. I have read a lot about Smith revolvers over the years, I just haven't had to take one apart til now.

That said, it is back in one piece and functioning correctly with one small hitch. I am fairly certain this was not self-induced either. When in single action mode, the hammer comes cleanly off the sear until it gets to the double action sear. It just slightly rubs on this part (I opened it back up and looked while thumbing the hammer back and slowly letting it down again) and continues to fall cleanly to the end of travel. Sometimes the entire travel is clean until the cylinder is opened, re-closed and tried again. Then it will have this slight rub/catch again for a few shots. It does not appear to be on any specific one or few chambers.

Any Ideas here? What is causing this to happen and how do I fix it? After being cleaned up and aside from a few nicks it is really a pretty nice little gun and I'm sure they could be polished out anyway. Help me solve this problem and I'll have a new favorite plinker!

 

[Majic]

Sounds like someone has gotten a little heavy handed on a action job. They have either rounded or changed the angle on the single action sear and I bet there is some push off too. If that's the problem then the only cure is to replace the hammer. Also on a wild chance check the pivot holes on both the hammer and trigger plus the related pins for damage. They could be allowing minute movement which could cause the trigger to miss the single action sear.

 

[mnrivrat]

When in single action mode, the hammer comes cleanly off the sear until it gets to the double action sear. It just slightly rubs on this part (I opened it back up and looked while thumbing the hammer back and slowly letting it down again) and continues to fall cleanly to the end of travel.

I believe they call this a "long sear" condition and if I understand you correctly the toe of the DA sear is not completly clearing the trigger in the downward stroke.

This can be caused by wear on the DA sear making the toe come forward to far , etc. I'm not a qualified pistol smith, but I believe the correction is to shorten the bottom of the sear slightly to achieve clearance. NOTE: do not do this until you get more qualified information - I am simply talking out loud .

I don't think it is a big deal , or any parts need be replaced , I'm just not 100% sure of the proper cure.

 

[winchester62]

Hmmm. But it never seems to "miss the single action sear." It reliably cocks to the single action sear every time. It works correctly -- except that it has this "rub" sometimes after the trigger breaks in single action mode. It happens about 1/5 from the top of the arc of travel.


Edit:
MNRIVRAT,

Thanks. I was writing when you posted. I'll look into that avenue!

 

[winchester62]

.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Buggered screws can be replaced.

 

[mnrivrat]

Hmmm. But it never seems to "miss the single action sear." It reliably cocks to the single action sear every time. It works correctly -- except that it has this "rub" sometimes after the trigger breaks in single action mode. It happens about 1/5 from the top of the arc of travel.

That would be correct to what I understood. If the rub you speak of is the DA sear toe (bottom of the DA sear) coming into contact with the upper head of the trigger (at the SA sear point on the trigger) , then it will cause some interference with hammer fall , and can give light primer strikes as a result. When cocked in SA and the trigger is pulled, there should be nothing that touches the hammer/DA sear as it rotates through it's travel in SA firing.

 

[winchester62]

Ok, thanks mnrivrat. Does anyone know if I can take a little off the nose off the double action sear to cure it? Or did someone monkey with it enough to ruin it? Also - why does it do this only *sometimes* during single action operation? Pins out of shape or bent or something as majic suggests? Is there some usual things that cause this condition? This is frustrating. Thanks for the help - and anyone else who has any answers/suggestions.

Oh yes - I did change out the flat-top screw, standing wolf. I was going to change them all until I found out the front screw needs to be correctly fitted so as to not interfere with the opening of the cylinder... Thanks though..

 

[Old Fuff]

1. Order a correct set of concave-nose pin punches for S&W revolvers from Brownells (www.brownells.com). A set of screwdrivers for these guns would be a good idea too. If you really want to get into doing your own work also buy a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's "The S&W Revolver - A Shop Manual" from the same source. Then make a simple bench block by taking a piece of hardwood about 4 inches square by 3/4" thick (dimensions are not critical) and drilling a 1/4" hole in the middle.

2. Following the instructions contained in the shop manual remove the hammer, and drive out the pin that holds the double-action sear in the front of the hammer. While doing this rest the hammer on the home-made bench block. Be careful to not lose the little spring behind the sear.

3. Reassemble the revolver (less the sear) and dry-fire to see if the problem goes away. The double-action feature will be missing - pulling the trigger will revolve the cylinder but nothing more - but the single-action mode should work fine. Go ahead and test fire the gun if you wish.

4. If all goes well you have identified the cause of the original problem. Then take the sear itself and remove about .003" from the front face of it.

5. Again disassemble the revolver and remove the hammer. Reassemble the sear and sear spring back into the hammer. Then put the gun back together.

6. Test fire to be sure everything is working as it should. If the hammer is still "ticking" something come back for more advise.

Note: The manual will also show how to fit the yoke retaining screw. There is not reason you shouldn't replace it, along with other buggered screws.

 

[winchester62]

1. Order a correct set of concave-nose pin punches for S&W revolvers from Brownells (www.brownells.com). A set of screwdrivers for these guns would be a good idea too. If you really want to get into doing your own work also buy a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's "The S&W Revolver - A Shop Manual" from the same source. Then make a simple bench block by taking a piece of hardwood about 4 inches square by 3/4" thick (dimensions are not critical) and drilling a 1/4" hole in the middle.

I have the screwdrivers, and the book is in the mail. I'll also have to order the pin punches. Will make the block... Check.

2. Following the instructions contained in the shop manual remove the hammer, and drive out the pin that holds the double-action sear in the front of the hammer. While doing this rest the hammer on the home-made bench block. Be careful to not lose the little spring behind the sear.

Will do...

3. Reassemble the revolver (less the sear) and dry-fire to see if the problem goes away. The double-action feature will be missing - pulling the trigger will revolve the cylinder but nothing more - but the single-action mode should work fine. Go ahead and test fire the gun if you wish.

Will do...

4. If all goes well you have identified the cause of the original problem. Then take the sear itself and remove about .003" from the front face of it.

Ok.. Any idea why it would only *sometimes* interfere?

5. Again disassemble the revolver and remove the hammer. Reassemble the sear and sear spring back into the hammer. Then put the gun back together.

Check

6. Test fire to be sure everything is working as it should. If the hammer is still "ticking" something come back for more advise.

Will do that as well...

Note: The manual will also show how to fit the yoke retaining screw. There is not reason you shouldn't replace it, along with other buggered screws.

Great! I'll do that also. I noticed the original round-headed screws are not threaded all the way to the end and the new ones are. These threads grind into the yoke retainer if I put the new screw in without fitting/filing. Did S&W stop making this kind of screw for a simpler one knowing the screw will have to be filed anyway - "so we might as well make them file off some threads along with some length?" Or did they send me the wrong part number? Thank you Old Fuff for the help and the very descriptive post. I'll work on the steps you listed when I get home!

 

[Old Fuff]

The reason for concave (cup-shaped) noses on the punches is that they fit the round-headed pins and won't slip off and mar the work (hammer or whatever) the way a flat-pointed punch might.

Any idea why it would only *sometimes* interfere?

If we presume that the sear is causing the trouble...

I think the fit is very close - so close that if you even slightly relax after pulling the trigger in the single-action mode the trigger just ticks the sear. You might experiment by deliberately jerking the trigger very hard and see if the problem still occurs.

In older S&W Revolvers the sideplate screws were the same, except in those sideplates that had 4 rather then 3 screws (large-headed screw at the top on 4-screw models) and the screw that retained the yoke was shortened if necessary. Later they tried to avoid the extra labor by going to what might be called a "pre-fitted" screw. The fitting is very minor, but if you're going to Brownells (always a good idea) look at Smith & Wesson in the parts section (model 63) and order a #940-070-850 Yoke Screw.

 

[winchester62]

Yes, Old Fuff. I tried firm trigger pull vs. a more loose pull. That didn't seem to matter unfortunately... I will get back to you for more questions or to relate how your posts have helped me to fix my issue one way or the other. Thank you so much for taking the time to help. I REALLY appreciate it!

 

[Old Fuff]

There is a slim possibility that something other then the double-action sear is causing the trouble. For that reason I would remove the sear and try the single-action mode before making any adjustments to the sear itself. Opening and closing the cylinder shouldn't make any difference unless something is amiss with the cylinder latch.

Swing the cylinder out, hold back the latch thumbpiece, and then single-action dry fire the hammer and see if that makes any difference. I wouldn't expect it too, but who knows...?

 

[winchester62]

Well, I just got the gun back together after taking it all down to the last part. I cleaned it properly and sanded the few dings on the exterior. When these light nicks were flat, I scotchbrighted the finish to a uniform look. I dressed the thumb latch screw/nut and the sideplate edges. The exterior is nice! It's not perfect, but it's very close and could be made perfect if I spent a few more minutes at it. Since I'm going to shoot the snot out of this thing, I figured it is good enough. The remaining little marks are very hard to see.

As far as the hammer issue... I believe it is only rubbing as I described when I ride the hammer down with my thumb. It seems like a really tight fit where it touches, but only does so when there is pressure pushing down on the hammer when I "ride" it down. If I let it fall (onto a q-tip) on its own, it doesn't seem to rub at all. Even so, when I have felt it touch, it was just barely. I am really looking forward to getting this to the range!

Thanks for all the help guys. Especially Old Fuff! It was a lot more than I got on the S&W forum. I guess if you aren't talking about pre model # 29s or something else old and blue, they don't want to help. I don't mean to slam them or anything, but I didn't get one response! Thanks again!