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Need load info for 9mm Nato

H

Hockey7711

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
249
I have 125GR fmj bullets and titegroup powder.
I'm trying to reproduce the standard nato round.
Any ideas about powder load and COL?
Thanks
 
TItegroup would NOT be my choice of powder!

https://www.targetbarn.com/broad-side/9mm-luger-vs-9mm-nato/

You’ll notice that nowhere in that description did I say the word NATO. That’s because the NATO designation didn’t happen until the round was universally adopted by NATO as the standard pistol round. However, not all “9mm NATO” ammo is the same because there’s no standard bullet weight for actual NATO production. Actual NATO ammo uses a range of bullet weights.

For example, US manufactured M882 used to weigh 112 grains, however Winchester sells commercial overrun NATO ammo with a 124 grain bullet. Makes perfect sense, right? Milsurp ammo also doesn’t routinely list the bullet weight either. Great Britian used a 116 grain bullet as their standard 9mm for years.

With all that being said, the most common NATO branded ammo you’ll find is sold by Winchester and now Sig Sauer’s ammo division. Both are 124 grain FMJ rounds.
 
Hockey7711 said:
125GR fmj bullets and titegroup powder.

trying to reproduce the standard nato round
Click to expand...
Not going to happen with Titegroup.
US Army Specs - https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/
  • XM882 - 124 gr FMJ RN at 1273 fps from 5" barrel M9/Beretta
  • M1152 - 115 gr FMJ FN at 1326 fps from 4.7" barrel M17/Sig P320 (Winchester FMJ open lead base projectile)
  • M1153 - 147 gr JHP at 962 fps from 4.7" barrel M17/Sig P320 (Winchester Ranger-T/Black Talon projectile)

From Hodgdon load data - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
  • 9mm 125 gr Sierra FMJ RN Titegroup COL 1.090" Start 4.1 gr (1,069 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1,136 fps)
Closest you will get to 1200 is with slower burning powders. These from Speer load data - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf
  • 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN Titegroup COL 1.135" Start 4.0 gr (1020 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1095 fps)
  • 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN BE-86 COL 1.135" Start 5.4 gr (1124 fps) - Max 6.0 gr (1199 fps)
  • 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN Blue Dot COL 1.135" Start 7.1 gr (1121 fps) - Max 7.9 gr (1238 fps)
 
Last edited:
I have some Winchester NATO on order, but I'm trying to reproduce a similar cartridge so I don't have to keep buying it
It doesn't have to be exactly the same, but I need a stronger recoil to operate the bolt on my ap-5.
They recommend the NATO ammo for the first 500 rounds for break- in.
A p+ load is 125 and accurate #2 using 4-4.3 grains.
Could I use something like that on the lower end? I have some accurate #2.
 
LiveLife said:
Not going to happen with Titegroup.
US Army Specs - https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/
  • XM882 - 124 gr FMJ RN at 1273 fps from 5" barrel M9/Beretta
  • M1152 - 115 gr FMJ FN at 1326 fps from 4.7" barrel M17/Sig P320 (Winchester FMJ open lead base projectile)
  • M1153 - 147 gr JHP at 962 fps from 4.7" barrel M17/Sig P320 (Winchester Ranger-T/Black Talon projectile)

From Hodgdon load data - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
  • 9mm 125 gr Sierra FMJ RN Titegroup COL 1.090" Start 4.1 gr (1,069 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1,136 fps)
Closest you will get to 1200 is with slower burning powders. These from Speer load data -
  • 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN Titegroup COL 1.135" Start 4.0 gr (1020 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1095 fps)
  • 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN BE-86 COL 1.135" Start 5.4 gr (1124 fps) - Max 6.0 gr (1199 fps)
  • 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN Blue Dot COL 1.135" Start 7.1 gr (1121 fps) - Max 7.9 gr (1238 fps)
Click to expand...
I think this week has had the most references to Blue Dot in 9mm I’ve seen in decades.
Accurate No.7 will get you very close inside of standard pressure limits but making 1200fps with a 124gr. Winchester FM with anything LESS than a 5” barrel is not going to happen without going deep into +P territory. Definitely NOT the kind of steady diet one would feed their EDC. IMO.
 
Hockey7711 said:
I have some Winchester NATO on order, but I'm trying to reproduce a similar cartridge so I don't have to keep buying it
It doesn't have to be exactly the same, but I need a stronger recoil to operate the bolt on my ap-5.
They recommend the NATO ammo for the first 500 rounds for break- in.
A p+ load is 125 and accurate #2 using 4-4.3 grains.
Could I use something like that on the lower end? I have some accurate #2.
Click to expand...
@LiveLife is exactly right: the faster pistol powders like Accurate No.2 and TiteGroup (add to that list Bullseye, Red Dot, Competition, Silhouette, WST, 700X and everything else faster than Unique) are not going to make the pressure curve within safe limits to get you close. They may or may not cycle the action if your f/a is looking for that pressure. The fastest powder I can recommend (which means it’s available somewhere online) is Accurate No.7. Blue Dot is your best choice if you can find it.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
making 1200 fps with a 124gr. Winchester FM with anything LESS than a 5” barrel is not going to happen without going deep into +P territory
Click to expand...
I believe NATO spec is pushing 39,000+ PSI - https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/

"The pressures for the M1152 and M1153 are 39,700 p.s.i."​

These are only loads listed higher than 1200 fps from Hodgdon +P load data - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center
  • 9mm +P 124 gr Remington GSBR True Blue COL 1.145" Start 6.2 gr (1,139 fps) 35,500 PSI - Max 6.5 gr (1,203 fps) 37,200 PSI
  • 9mm +P 124 gr Remington GSBR No. 7 COL 1.145" Start 7.9 gr (1,149 fps) 36,100 PSI - Max 8.3 gr (1,206 fps) 38,000 PSI
  • 9mm +P 124 gr Remington GSBR Silhouette COL 1.145" Start 5.9 gr (1,131 fps) 35,300 PSI - Max 6.4 gr (1,212 fps) 38,300 PSI
GeoDudeFlorida said:
faster pistol powders like ... Silhouette ... are not going to make the pressure curve within safe limits to get you close
Click to expand...
Yet Silhouette (Around Titegroup burn rate) produced highest max velocity on Hodgdon load data - https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-burn-rate-chart.pdf
 
Last edited:
Hartkopf said:
Blue Dot. Worth another mention right!?:D

HS-6 would be good too. It's been very stable and predictable for me on the high end with 124gr bullets.
Click to expand...
Yes, HS-6 is an excellent powder for 9mm and .40! It might be close enough for the OP if they can find it.
 
Nato requires a 9 mm bullet weight from 108 to 128 grains generating between 400 and 600 ftlbs. A 125 gr. bullet needs to be 1200 fps at the muzzle to get to 400 ftlb.
Titegroup and accurate #2 are way too fast. Longshot, Be-86, power pistol and other slower pistol powders can achieve Nato specs safely.
Link to Nato specs. http://gigconceptsinc.com/files/STANAG4090-cartridge_9x19.pdf
 
LiveLife said:
So how is it that fastest velocity listed on Hodgdon for 124/125 gr bullets was attained by silhouette with burn rate around Titegroup? - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/need-load-info-for-9mm-nato.917810/#post-12596462
  • 9mm +P 124 gr Remington GSBR Silhouette COL 1.145" Start 5.9 gr (1,131 fps) 35,300 PSI - Max 6.4 gr (1,212 fps) 38,300 PSI
Click to expand...
Go back to one of the burn rate charts with Winchester WAP listed. WAP on the older Hodgdon chart was 53, where TiteGroup was 18. Ramshot Silhouette was 63 - but Silhouette is WAP which just points to the flaw of trying to use a burn rate chart to determine fitness of a powder for a particular task.
https://loaddata.com/images/articles/burnratechartnew.pdf
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Go back to one of the burn rate charts ... where TiteGroup was 18. Ramshot Silhouette was 63
Click to expand...
Hodgdon now owns and sells Ramshot Silhouette and updated their burn rate chart in 2022 - https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-burn-rate-chart.pdf

On the new Hodgdon burn rate chart, Titegroup is #15 and Silhouette is #17 where W231 is #28.

So it doesn't matter what previous burn rate chart listed Silhouette/WAP as Hodgdon now lists Silhouette at near Titegroup burn rate.

If I can find them, I may do chrono testing with Silhouette compared to BE-86 to verify.
 
LiveLife said:
Hodgdon now owns and sells Ramshot Silhouette and updated their burn rate chart in 2022 - https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-burn-rate-chart.pdf

On the new Hodgdon burn rate chart, Titegroup is #15 and Silhouette is #17 where W231 is #28.

So it doesn't matter what previous burn rate chart listed Silhouette/WAP as Hodgdon now lists Silhouette at near Titegroup burn rate.
Click to expand...
Okie dokie. Have fun with that. Western in their Version 8.0 manual put Silhouette on par with BE86 and Accurate No.7 - which the actual shooting evidence and listed velocities indicate is a closer match - but, I’m fine with the advice given. You asked “...how can it be...” and I tried to explain. Attempt failed. Moving on...
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Western in their Version 8.0 manual put Silhouette on par with BE86 and Accurate No.7 - which the actual shooting evidence and listed velocities indicate is a closer match
Click to expand...
I am actually in agreement with you as higher velocities are usually achieved by slower burning powders (Titegroup vs BE-86 as an example).

But Hodgdon is now the owner and publisher of Silhouette and load data so something must have changed or something is not right or why would Hodgdon's 2022 updated burn rate chart list Silhouette next to Titegroup?

That's why I am curious about doing my own chrono testing with Silhouette compared to BE-86. If higher velocities are measured then I am inclined to believe Silhouette is much slower burning than Titegroup. If not, Silhouette is "relatively" similar in burn rate as Titegroup ... ;)
 
Hockey7711 said:
I have some Winchester NATO on order, but I'm trying to reproduce a similar cartridge so I don't have to keep buying it
It doesn't have to be exactly the same, but I need a stronger recoil to operate the bolt on my ap-5.
They recommend the NATO ammo for the first 500 rounds for break- in.
A p+ load is 125 and accurate #2 using 4-4.3 grains.
Could I use something like that on the lower end? I have some accurate #2.
Click to expand...

Here's an interesting thing about gunpowder and recoil, which is good to know in general.

If two (or a hundred) powders produce the same speed with the same bullet, the one that uses the larger charge weight of powder will produce the most recoil force. (This is completely independent of the peak chamber pressure they generate.) The powder, in the form of gas, is part of the ejecta and adds to the recoil force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

Thus, formulas that calculate recoil force include the weight of the powder charge.

http://kwk.us/recoil.html
 
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