Need S&W Dated

[Iamsniper1]

The story on this S&W is that at one time it belonged to a Mafia buttonman who
went by the name of Flashdancer(Card Shark)(real name unknown) back in the early thirties,He robbed a bank in Oaklahoma along with Pretty Boy Floyd,he was shot in the back 3 times by a foot patrolman who kept Flashdancer's revolver.
I aquired said S&W from patrolman's wife.His wife kept the revolver in a breadbox wrapped in cheesecloth because of the lard,thats right I said LARD,this revolver was packed full of lard(barrel,cylinder,even under the grips)It took me 2 days to clean this stuff out of the revolver(Wife has no Idea why her husband did this.)Heres all the particulers--
Small logo under eject button on left side,Smith&Wesson on left side of barrel,
top of barrel reads-SMITH&WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS.U.S.A.
PATENTD FEB. 8.06. SEPT.14.09.DEC.29.14.
Right side of barrel reads-38 S.& W.SPECIAL CTG.
Right side of frame reads-MADE IN U.S.A.
6 inch barrel,6 shot,5 screw,pinned barrel,fixed sights.
Bluing is mint(No holster wear)
Hammer and trigger colorcase mint.
Grips unknown.
All matching serial numbers,(serial #525XXX)
Next stop- ROY JINKS.
THE speedloader reads-REVOLVER CARTRIDGE CORP NEW YORK.
I have no Idea what this loader is.

 

[CSA 357]

wow! thats a gun with some history! but wheres the pictures? *csa*

 

[Iamsniper1]

I can see the pic at my end,I don't know why you can't see them.

 

[mbs357]

Did the lard at least keep the rust away? =p

 

[Old Fuff]

The picture came up for me too.

The revolver is a Smith & Wesson 38 1905 Hand Ejector, Military & Police model/ 4th Change. It was made sometime between 1915 and 1942, and I'd estimate probably during the late 1920's

It has a 6" barrel and blue finish. The stocks are aftermarket plastic ones, made by the Fransite (sp) Company - probably during the latter 1930's or 40's.

I suspect it was stored packed in lard as a rust preventative.

Do come back after Roy Jinks has his say.

 

[SaxonPig]

It appears to me to be a standard 6" Military & Police revolver. Serial #500,000 is believed to have been shipped in 1927 so your gun likely shipped between 1927-1930 or so. Roy can probably provide the exact date and destination. The stocks are incorrect (are they plastic or is the wood stained?).

BTW- The Texas State Prison bought a large number of these revolvers in this serial range. This former owner never busted out of prison in Texas, did he? Maybe he took a guard's gun with him?

I have seen similar loaders but I have no info on it.

 

[Iamsniper1]

The grips are heavy plastic.All I know about Flashdancer is that he did some bank jobs in Oaklahoma.Still trying to run down his real name.

 

[Old Fuff]

The grips are heavy plastic.

Remove the grips and see if the maker's name isn't molded on the inside of one of them. I believe they were made by the Fransite (sp) Company. They were a major maker of plastic handgun grips during the late 1930's through 50's when plastic was new and thought to be cool.

If he robbed banks there might be something in the FBI's archives.

 

[XavierBreath]

I'll be a fly in the ointment, uh lard........

Without a better photo or examination, I cannot say for certain if these are Franzite grips. Franzite grips were marketed by "Sports Inc" out of Chicago. If these are Franzite grips, there will be a Franzite stamp inside. Franzite grips could be had with or without Franzite medallions.

Why is this important? Franzite was a post war company. Even if these are not Franzite grips, most of the swirly plastic grips such as those shown were produced after WWII. I am not saying the grips are not from the 1930s, but if they say Franzite, I do not believe they are. (I'm making my post war company assertation based on John Henwood's research. I'm presently trying to fact check myself here, trying to find any type of evidence Franzite existed prior to WWII. The earliest Franzite brochure I can find is 1946.)

Your M&P, however, is most certainly a pre-1930 gun. Thus, if the gun was removed from "Flashdancer" in say.....1933, then the grips may have been replaced sometime afterwards.

 

[Norm357]

Can anyone (Fuff, Xavier?) tell me anything about that speedloader? I have never seen anything like it.

 

[Old Fuff]

Somewhere in my stuff I have a picture of it, but I don't remember the details. Going by memory only, I think it's pre-World War Two.

X-Breath...

I agree that the grips are probably post-World War Two, partly because they are Magna-style. Most likely they were changed by a later owner. Again, going by memory, I thought the Franzite (sp) company was around before the war. I know they were around shortly after the war. I believe Roy will find that the gun itself was made during the late 1920's.

And folks, my memory is starting to fail...

 

[Iamsniper1]

Heres a photo of the grips,Although you can't tell by the pic the grips do have simulated cut checkering.There are no manufacturer's marks anywhere on these grips.
Would it be wise to replace these grips with genuine S&W wood grips?

 

[Old Fuff]

The interior of the grips have a certain early Franzite look, especially the little recess at the top of the right one for the sideplate screw. The checkering is similar to pre-war S&W Magna stocks. But they are unmarked, which leaves us up in the air. I now wonder if Sports, Inc. origianted the grips they made, or bought a company that was already in the business. While I am aware of Franzite I have little or no knowledge of the compay's history.

Would it be wise to replace these grips with genuine S&W wood grips?

Yes and no. Replacing the grips would be of little benefit unless they were the correct style and pattern for the period during which the gun was made, and you'll have to wait for a letter from Roy Jinks to confirm when that was. Finding the correct stocks could be difficult and expensive.

The more important question is, "what was on the revolver when "Flashdancer" was supposed to have had it?" I would make no changes until more was known, but at the same time if a pair of period-correct S&W stocks came along I'd jump for them.

 

[XavierBreath]

Once again, I agree with my mentor, Old Fuff.

Because this revolver may be historically attributed to a known person of significance, the question of the grips being period or not is essential.

Since they are not marked Franzite, the era Franzite grips were made is immaterial. I have not been able to find much information on Franzite as a company, but I did discover that most plastics from the 1920 through early 1930s were in fact Bakelite, and deteriorated over time. This is why there is such an aftermarket for automobile knobs and such among restorationists of that time period. Whether your grips are Bakelite, which would definitely date them as period grips, I cannot say. Whether Bakelite would be preserved packed in lard I cannot say.

Since lard was a common household staple during the 1930s, and the grips were packed as well as the rest of the gun by the officer who removed it from "Flashdancer", I feel there is a fair amount of accuracy in saying they are likely "Flashdancer's" grips. There simply would be no incentive for the person who sought to preserve the gun in lard to change out the grips prior to doing so. The problem is proving it.

On a side note.......Fuff, when did magna grips appear on Registered Magnums? These plastic replacement magnas no doubt came after the S&W magnas appeared on the market.

FWIW, I own a similar revolver that has a historical connection to events in Gibsland Louisiana on May 23, 1934. The problem is connecting the dots that irrefutably establishes provenance. I have been researching mine for three years. I still need a vital link, although the story is tantalizing in it's seeming truth. Here is that gun.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have the following notes from a S&W engineer's logbook:

September 5, 1935: Order to adjust stocking fixtures to manufacturer magna stocks with metal stock circle insert for .357 Magnum revolvers per H. Wesson. (I think this refers to metal inserts on the inside of the stocks).

February 5, 1936: Order to make all model .44 H.E., .45 H.E., and .38/44 H. E. revolvers with Magna stocks.

April 1, 1936 Order to make Magna style stocks for all Model K revolvers furnished on customers' order per H. Wesson. (this would be on a special order basis. Obviously all post 1936 K-frame/square butt revolvers did not come with Magna stocks.)

 

[Norm357]

Xaiver, I would love to hear the story that you are trying to document. I love these sort of things.

Is this what you are talking about?

Law enforcement officers ambush Bonnie & Clyde near Gibsland, Louisiana, killing both in a hail of bullets.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff’s antennae is twitching…

There is a Colt Police Positive .38, converted to a Fitzgerald Special configuration that supposedly belonged to Clyde of Bonnie & Clyde fame.

If not Clyde, then his brother, Buck.

 

[XavierBreath]

Xaiver, I would love to hear the story that you are trying to document. I love these sort of things.

That is the event. This gun was purchased from the grandson of a man who is documented as being at the ambush site in photographs, although he was not law enforcement. His family has four original photos and negatives of him posing at the actual ambush site. He was undoubtedly there.

There were many other souvineers taken by people from the area, and it is not uncommon to still have them show up around Arcadia La. when someone dies. My problem is there is no evidence of this revolver on the inventory and photos of guns retrieved from the car, although there was .38S&W ammo there as well as .38 special. Of course, if this revolver were stolen at the scene, it would not be on the inventory. I cannot ascribe it to any person anywhere, except the family of the man at the ambush site. If I could show ownership of the gun by someone, say in Joplin Missouri, then it begs the question of how it appeared in this family's hands. FWIW, the family owns other ambush items as well, photos, shellcasings, even wood splinters from trees and glass shards.

The barrel has been cut down. This is a gun that would have been easy to conceal in a overalls pocket at the scene. Info on other B&C guns can be found here and here.

It is said that Billy the Kid's mother had a barrel of pistols on her front porch soaking in water. Each time a pilgrim would find his way to her home to buy one of "Billy's guns", she gladly sold one. Such may be the case in Beinville Parish when it comes to Bonnie & Clyde.

Fuff, if you have any further info on that PP Fitzgerald conversion, I'd love to hear it! PM me!

Back to the original subject though........If S&W came out with the magna grips in 1936, then the plastic replacements likely did not appear on the market for at least a year or two later.

 

[digi-shots]

.... Iamsniper1:

quote: I aquired said S&W from patrolman's wife

Are you still in contact with the patrolman's wife? Just wondering if she has
a box of his old "stuff"... cleaning tools, rags, etc.. You might just find a set of old S&W grips in with his "stuff". Did S&W number the grips to the gun during this time period?

 

[Old Fuff]

Back to the original subject though........If S&W came out with the magna grips in 1936, then the plastic replacements likely did not appear on the market for at least a year or two later.

So it would seem. But it is possible that after the revolver was picked up (if it was) the "picker-upper" used it until later when it was packed in lard. A lot of details are missing here, and a lot of (fun) research needs to be done.

Pretty Boy Floyd's exploits are pretty well documented, and a bank robber getting shot dead would have made a lot of papers. Go to it!

X-Breath:

Expect a PM.

 

[Trebor]

I have one of those speedloaders. I bought it from a gunshow in Michigan several years back. The seller had two, one of which was nickeled. The seller said the hinge in the middle was so the loader could be worn on a duty belt with the cartridges splayed out so the loader would ride flat. That's all I know. My loader is the twin to yours. I should have bought the nickeled one as well.