Need some advice on a Nagant barrel cut down and it's ballistic impact.

[Mudcat Stew]

I have got a Mosin Nagant 91/30 I am turning into a scout rifle project. The present length of the barrel is 28.75 inches from the bolt face to the end.

Part of the project is to get the overall length of the gun to 1 meter or less. To get it to the requirement I will have to trim the barrel length down to 19.375 inches.

I am not a handloader at present and don't know how cutting down the barrel to this length will impact ballistics, muzzle velocity and so forth. I shoot mill surplus light ball. I know that in the carbine version has a 20.2 inch barrel and which drops the muzzle velocity from 2838 fps to 2625 fps.

I imagine cutting nearly another inch from that might cost me another 50 fps but I dunno and I sure don't know how it will impact bullet drop out to 300 yards.

If any of you THR handloaders know how to crunch this data and give me me some input, I would certainly be thankful for it.

All the best,

Mudcat

 

[wgaynor]

I'm thinking about starting the same project. Please let me know how it goes. Now I'll set back and watch others educate me too.

 

[cberge8]

Haven't reloaded for my mosin yet, but I can give some comparison on a 91/30 vs a m44.

I think your expectation of muzzle velocity would be pretty accurate.

With my 91/30 russian silver tip (light ball), shoots very well. Very little muzzle flash and pretty darn accurate. With my m44, while still very accurate, muzzle flash is a beast! The last time I shot light ball in my m44 (from a 30" table on a rest), the grass below the muzzle was completely singed after about 30 rounds! This would be much worse with a shorter barrel.

I would recommend reloading with a slightly faster powder to reduce muzzle flash.

 

[Mudcat Stew]

I'm thinking about starting the same project. Please let me know how it goes. Now I'll set back and watch others educate me too.

Someone has crunched the data for the M44 with a 20.2 inch barrel on a lot of the ammo that is out there for these guns. Just found it.

http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm

I may use 20.2 for my cutdown, given I have available info on it.

 

[Tmygun]

You'd likely be getting around 300 Savage velocites, which isn't bad. The old 300 Savage has killed more than it's share of big game.
Good luck with the project.

Tmygun

 

[Rory McCanuck]

Rather than chopping up a 91/30, why not just get a M44?
$150 for a real nice one, and the work is already done for you

 

[RandyP]

Mosin collectors would call what you plan a "Bubba'd" rifle. Something to be avoided at all costs. I'm not a purist Mosin owner but I'd agree if you really 'want' a short barrel 7.62x54R, just buy the M44. Why chop up a piece of history? It is also true that caliber and short barrels equal quite the impressive fireball at the cost of accuracy.

That said, it's yer rifle, only you get to decide how to treat it.

 

[FROGO207]

OH NO another BUBBA. I do agree with the thought of getting the rifle with the work already done for you, but for a project to do this winter you might just have some fun. I have an old one that somebody did this to and ended up with a ~20 inch barrel. It shoots great and killed a Bambi DRT but the muzzle flash was blinding with the Hungarian light ball ammo. Never did bother to run it by the chrono. I load it using faster propellants and now it is fun to shoot as well as accurate and softer spoken.

 

[Mudcat Stew]

Mosin collectors would call what you plan a "Bubba'd" rifle. Something to be avoided at all costs. I'm not a purist Mosin owner but I'd agree if you really 'want' a short barrel 7.62x54R, just buy the M44. Why chop up a piece of history? It is also true that caliber and short barrels equal quite the impressive fireball at the cost of accuracy

.
The main reason is that I already own a 91/30 and I like doing projects. I knew I would fiddle with it when I bought it. It's a good shooter with strong rifling, just gangly and cumbersome. Has the round receiver on it. I have only shot it once, as it's a recent purchase... but I managed a 3 inch group with one flyer at 100yds using a sapling for a front rest.

I did cut it down and crowned it yesterday. It's a Bubba job, but I like to think I am a quality Bubba.

I opted for the 19 3/8 inch barrel. I found a ballistics calculator on the net and have used 2600fps as "hopefully" a good guesstimate of muzzle velocity. I don't have a chrono.

I will get to find out how the accuracy has been impacted tomorrow. The family is down and my brother in laws want to go shooting. I live out in the country and there it a hill in the back, so I can turn the side yard into an impromptu range with a max shooting distance of about 180 yards.

The cutdown cost me my iron sights, which I replaced with a multi-reticle red dot scope, that I mounted where the rear sight went. It's only 2X but target acquisition is very fast. It's the first red dot type device I have used and not having to worry about eye relief is pretty cool.

I am actually hoping accuracy isn't impeded. I know I will lose a bit of range because of decreased mv. However, I am hoping that the increased rigidity of the barrel due to its shorter length will offset the lower velocity.

I'll post my findings on this thread.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Mudcat

 

[Tmygun]

Actually, the Russians took a bunch of 91/30s and cut them down to M38 length in 1959. They named them, curiously enough, the 91/59. You are right about the shorter barrel retaining it's accuracy. I owned a 91/59 and that thing out-shot my 91/30s and held it's own with my Finnish M39. I think it was due to the thicker/more rigid barrel of the 91/59. My 91/59 also had a pristine bore, so that was another plus.
Good luck with the project.

Tmygun

 

[Mudcat Stew]

Well my family put shooting off till tomorrow and watched LSU play Arkansas instead. I caught a bit of the game but decided to go ahead and sight in the Nagant.

Prior to shooting I bore sighted it, the old fashioned way, at approximately 120 yds.

I was tickled when I shot the first time at 50 yds. It was within a half inch of the bull. The following shot was 8 inches left, the next was 12. I put a few more frustrated rounds through it at 25 with poor result.

It was then that I realized that the scope mount I am using was flopping about. I had read up on the mount I used. Here is a pic.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/mona91scmone.html
Most said thread locking compound fixed their problems. So I used this in advance when I leveled the mount.

Anyways I tightened and leveled the mount again, even though the side mount screws had actually bent a bit under the first few rounds. However, it was pointless. It was great first shot but then the others fell widely apart.

The mount sits in the fixture for the rear iron sight, and despite the poor screws the mount seems to be a solid aluminum mount.

To correct the issue, I drilled some divots in the mount with a small drill bit, roughed up the mount cavity with a needle file and set it all in an epoxy rated to 2600 PSI.

More results later.

Regards,

A frustrated Mudcat

 

[FROGO207]

Good on you for the effort. You will get it solid eventually. A rail drilled and tapped may be the way you end up. It will be worth the aggravation I am willing to bet.