Need some help evaluating my range results

[vaalpens]

I know there is a great new thread started by BDS for pistol advanced reloading concepts which includes a topic for range testing. I will be following the advanced reloading concepts thread, but would appreciate it if anybody can give me some guidance in how to interpret the test results I have seen on Friday.

It was a windy day on Friday and I was testing my 357sig reloads at 15 yards. It seems I always pick these windy days when I test my 357sig loads.

For Unique I tested 3 loads with groupings of 2.14", 1.78" and 2.43". The groupings are consistent and I know I need to evaluate some additional loads.

For Longshot I tested 4 loads, string of 5 each. 3 Out of the 4 loads I experienced 1 flyer out of 5 shots. I'm not sure if this is me or the actual loads. The grouping were (grouping without flyer): 2.15"(0.86"), 1.81", 4.75"(1.57"), 1.96"(1.23"),

For Power Pistol I tested 3 loads. 2 Loads were really bad, and the last load with one flyer. The groupings I had were: No group(all over the place), no group (all over the place), 3.15"(1.77")

Based on the results for Power Pistol, I would say the flyer on the last load is probably load specific since the previous 2 were all over the place.

The Longshot loads has me scratching my head. There are some decent 4 shot groupings, but then also a flyer. On one of the loads I felt a flyer, but the other loads just seemed normal.

My evaluation is the following:
Unique: Go higher with charge and see if it makes a difference
PowerPistol: Definitely seems I need to go higher with charge
Longshot: Redo evaluation of the same charges and then evaluate once I have more data.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions or comments.

 

[Jim Watson]

Are you using good bullets?
I think changing powders is for fine tuning; you must have good bullets to tell anything.

 

[LiveLife]

If you are getting non-shooter induced flyers, things that cause flyers were discussed in this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760834

I am assuming you are using a pistol that's been range tested to shoot accurate with verified accurate loads to use as control?

If you did, shooting reference loads along with test loads will tell you if it is the load or the shooter - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9878749#post9878749

- If you get flyers with reference and test loads, well, then it is you, the shooter.

- If you only get flyers with the test loads, then it is likely the test loads.

Take heart. If you use mixed range brass, you are going to get flyers. I usually load enough rounds (10-15+ per powder charge) so that I can get a good idea what the accuracy trend is. If not, I repeat the range test (somedays, we have good days and not so good days).

 

[vaalpens]

Are you using good bullets?
I think changing powders is for fine tuning; you must have good bullets to tell anything.

I don't expect the results to be perfect since I am shooting plated bullets. These are the RMR Harcore Match Plated Flat Nose 124gr bullets.

357sig is tricky to load. The Lyman 49th has a range of 7.7gr to 8.5gr for a 125gr JHP and Hodgdon has a range of 8.3gr to 9.3gr for a 124gr XTP bullet.

I started lower because of the plated (rated up to 1500fps) bullets, but I think I should go higher to probably get some better consistency.

My loads were 7.5gr, 7.6gr, 7.7gr and 7.8gr. I am not even at the Hodgdon starting load.

 

[vaalpens]

If you are getting non-shooter induced flyers, things that cause flyers were discussed in this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760834

Thanks for the link.

I am assuming you are using a pistol that's been range tested to shoot accurate with verified accurate loads to use as control?

If you did, shooting reference loads along with test loads will tell you if it is the load or the shooter - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9878749#post9878749

- If you get flyers with reference and test loads, well, then it is you, the shooter.

It has not been verified since these are my first handloads for 357sig I am working up. I did some evaluation at 10yards, but I don't think I can use the 10yard results as reference test loads at 15 yards. I did see the comment in your advance reloading concepts thread to use verified loads, but in this case is is a few months old gun and starting with handloads.

- If you only get flyers with the test loads, then it is likely the test loads.

I was shooting 3 different loads, where the Powerpistol loads moved from all over the place (all flyers) to only one flyer. This I think is the load and I need to increase the charge a bit more.

Take heart. If you use mixed range brass, you are going to get flyers. I usually load enough rounds (10-15+ per powder charge) so that I can get a good idea what the accuracy trend is. If not, I repeat the range test (somedays, we have good days and not so good days).

When I made these loads I actually mad 10 per load but only shot 5 per load. My plan is to test the loads again with the remaining ammo just to see if I see the same trends again.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[rsrocket1]

The pressure in your rounds is a very important factor. You say your loads are below the start load of the manual. If the pressure does not get above 9-10,000 psi, it will not burn properly and will lead to inconsistent velocities. Your Unique loads are probably above this minimum. Longshot and Power Pistol are slower powders and need to be loaded to at least the start charge to behave properly.

I think you'll have better performance if you bumped the charges up. Almost as important is to chronograph the shots. If your velocities have big variations, you will know immediately what is causing your accuracy problem.

Good luck.

 

[vaalpens]

The pressure in your rounds is a very important factor. You say your loads are below the start load of the manual. If the pressure does not get above 9-10,000 psi, it will not burn properly and will lead to inconsistent velocities. Your Unique loads are probably above this minimum. Longshot and Power Pistol are slower powders and need to be loaded to at least the start charge to behave properly.

I think you'll have better performance if you bumped the charges up. Almost as important is to chronograph the shots. If your velocities have big variations, you will know immediately what is causing your accuracy problem.

Good luck.

rsrocket1, thanks for taking the time to provide some advice.

I don't have a chronograph yet, but I realize it is something I need especially loading for 357sig.

The Unique loads were 6.8gr, 6.9gr and 7.2gr
The Longshot loads were 7.5gr - 7.8gr
The Power Pistol loads were 7.8gr to 8.2gr

There are a few things I will be working on to refine the loads:
-Also work up loads with Berry's HBFPTP bullets
-I measured my Starline brass and I see it varies from .857" to .867". It is a big difference and some are over specs. I will try and use similar length brass to remove one of the variables
-Bump up my charges

 

[Rule3]

What gun are you using? Some guns shoot better than others.

Power Pistol is a excellent powder for 357 Sig. But as with most powders going below the start load is not good. You want to be at least mid range,

I would suggest just working with one powder at a time and tweaking charges and COL until you get the best you can with that powder then move on to another . Also are you shooting off hand or on a rest of some sort?

 

[steve4102]

Where you using a solid rest or shooting off-hand?

Testing for accuracy shooting off-hand can be troublesome at best.

 

[vaalpens]

What gun are you using? Some guns shoot better than others.

SIG P229

Power Pistol is a excellent powder for 357 Sig. But as with most powders going below the start load is not good. You want to be at least mid range,

I have basically used Lyman 49th for starting loads since it is lower than Hodgdon or Alliant data and I am using plated bullets. I am still way below max which gives me some flexibility.

I would suggest just working with one powder at a time and tweaking charges and COL until you get the best you can with that powder then move on to another . Also are you shooting off hand or on a rest of some sort?

I decided on the 3 powders so I have something to compare against since I did not have any reference data for 357sig handloads. It actually help me since I can compare results, feel and also brass condition.

I use a rest, with my eyes probably my handicap. My expectations are not that high, but I aim to get below 1" grouping at 10 yards, below 1.5" grouping at 15 yards, and below 2.5" grouping at 25 yards.

 

[vaalpens]

Where you using a solid rest or shooting off-hand?

Testing for accuracy shooting off-hand can be troublesome at best.

I use one of those cheap MTM rests, but it has helped me be more consistent. At 15 yards I am happy with a lower than 1.5" grouping for the type of shooting I am doing.

 

[moxie]

I am not in the OCD camp; rather, I subscribe to KISS and Occam's Razor.

Therefore, this is what I recommend. Quick and simple.

You have enough data to be reasonably sure that Unique works well for you and your gun. The other powders don't.

So, forget about the other powders and focus on the Unique. Work up loads of 5-10 rounds by tenths and try them out. Settle on the one with best results. Your groups of ~2" at 10-15 yds. rested are pretty good, I think.

You can't do much more without a chrono. Once you get one you can tweak a bit. But realistically I think you're almost home with the Unique loads you've already got.

 

[TfflHndn]

My P229 does not like light loads. For function and accuracy, I stay in the upper half of the load range. Most data is for jacketed bullets, but you should be able to run up at least to mid-range jacketed data. Going below start data is likely the main problem. You may want to try some jacketed bullets as a control, and see how they perform. I have found Montana Gold to make excellent bullets for .357SIG. Also, I ladder my test loads in .2 grain increments. Unless you are hand weighing each load on a beam scale, .1 grain steps may blur into each other given that many electronic scales are accurate only to 1/20th of a grain at best. So, .2 or .3 grain increments, particularly at the bottom end of the load range, may give you a better idea of where you need to be. You haven't gotten near max and started below start load for both manuals, and you can safely start with the beginning jacketed load and work from there to mid-range. Check the COAL in each manual to see if that accounts for the different load ranges, otherwise it's likely the differences in the bullet shape/composition between a FMJ and a JHP (the XTP)

 

[vaalpens]

I am not in the OCD camp; rather, I subscribe to KISS and Occam's Razor.

Therefore, this is what I recommend. Quick and simple.

You have enough data to be reasonably sure that Unique works well for you and your gun. The other powders don't.

So, forget about the other powders and focus on the Unique. Work up loads of 5-10 rounds by tenths and try them out. Settle on the one with best results. Your groups of ~2" at 10-15 yds. rested are pretty good, I think.

You can't do much more without a chrono. Once you get one you can tweak a bit. But realistically I think you're almost home with the Unique loads you've already got.

moxie, thanks for the suggestions.

I think you are correct regarding Unique. I have a good idea what I have and just need to fine tune it a bit.

Regarding Longshot and Power Pistol. My plan has always been to load Unique for practice rounds with less stress on the gun, and either Longshot or Power Pistol as a powder where I can push the envelope a bit and explore the fun part of 357sig loads.

 

[vaalpens]

My P229 does not like light loads. For function and accuracy, I stay in the upper half of the load range. Most data is for jacketed bullets, but you should be able to run up at least to mid-range jacketed data. Going below start data is likely the main problem. You may want to try some jacketed bullets as a control, and see how they perform. I have found Montana Gold to make excellent bullets for .357SIG. Also, I ladder my test loads in .2 grain increments. Unless you are hand weighing each load on a beam scale, .1 grain steps may blur into each other given that many electronic scales are accurate only to 1/20th of a grain at best. So, .2 or .3 grain increments, particularly at the bottom end of the load range, may give you a better idea of where you need to be. You haven't gotten near max and started below start load for both manuals, and you can safely start with the beginning jacketed load and work from there to mid-range. Check the COAL in each manual to see if that accounts for the different load ranges, otherwise it's likely the differences in the bullet shape/composition between a FMJ and a JHP (the XTP)

TfflHnd, thanks for valuable input.

I hand weigh my loads on a beam scale for 357sig, so I am comfortable working in .1gr increments.

I have realize that a lot handloaders use MG for 357sig, and I will try it out once I can find some smaller quantity just to try it out. I need to verify setback etc. before buying larger quantities.

I mark all my brass with the load number and inspect them especially with 357sig loads. I am confident that I can up the charges on my Longshot and Power Pistol load and will definitely explore some higher charges.

The bullet shape makes a difference. I had to set the COL at 1.140" for my RMR bullets to ensure the mouth of the case is still on the body/trunk of the bullet. The Berry's hollow base bullets I can load at 1.135".

 

[Rule3]

I will have to disagree on Unique over Power Pistol. PP meters much better and is a "preferred powder for the 9, 40 and 357 Sig.

Yes Unique will work well but so will a lot of others

Perhaps look at the data in the Speer and Hornady manuals.

 

[moxie]

Rule 3,

Yup, Power Pistol might be "preferred" by some, but it sure isn't working out too well, for him. Unique, on the other hand, is already working just fine for him. As an aside, while PP might be preferred for the 9 by some, I personally prefer Bullseye.

Sure, he can (OCD method) spend the next 43 years in search of the magic load, using some Swedish monk-developed super powder, that will gain him 1/10" in group size. Striving meanwhile for yet another tenth by trimming his carefully sorted brass, etc., etc.

Or, (KISS method) he can do a bit of tweaking on his current Unique load, call it good, and have fun shooting them. His choice.

vaalpens,

Yes by all means be very watchful of setback with the .357 Sig.

 

[Rule3]

Everyone prefers something else. I have the same gun and use lots of Longshot and PP but use different bullets and have excellent results so go figure.

There is no real data to go by in this thread. No Chronograph, no targets, varied powders so it's hard to know what page we are on.

One test of unknown amount of samples does not mean something is better than another,

I mention testing one powder and it;s not a good idea., You mention it and it is KISS

There are to many variables going on in his range evaluation.

He asked for information he is free to pick what feedback he wants.

 

[vaalpens]

I will have to disagree on Unique over Power Pistol. PP meters much better and is a "preferred powder for the 9, 40 and 357 Sig.

Yes Unique will work well but so will a lot of others

Perhaps look at the data in the Speer and Hornady manuals.

Rule3, thanks for the input. My plan is to find a good load for Power Pistol. Looking at Real Guns data, they did some evaluation with a P229, and both Unique and Power Pistol gave some good groupings at 25 yards. The last column is the grouping:

Hornady HP-XTP	124	1.140"	Power Pistol	9.0	1390	1.6
Hornady HP-XTP	124	1.140"	Unique		7.5	1390	1.2

Remington JHP	124	1.140"	Power Pistol	9.1	1460	1.4
Remington JHP	124	1.140"	Unique		7.4	1360	1.4

Speer Gold Dot	125	1.140"	Power Pistol	9.3	1440	0.9
Speer Gold Dot	125	1.140"	Unique		7.8	1380	1.1

 

[vaalpens]

Rule 3,

Yup, Power Pistol might be "preferred" by some, but it sure isn't working out too well, for him. Unique, on the other hand, is already working just fine for him. As an aside, while PP might be preferred for the 9 by some, I personally prefer Bullseye.

Sure, he can (OCD method) spend the next 43 years in search of the magic load, using some Swedish monk-developed super powder, that will gain him 1/10" in group size. Striving meanwhile for yet another tenth by trimming his carefully sorted brass, etc., etc.

Or, (KISS method) he can do a bit of tweaking on his current Unique load, call it good, and have fun shooting them. His choice.

vaalpens,

Yes by all means be very watchful of setback with the .357 Sig.

moxie, thanks again for the input. I am definitely not going to chase the magic load, but will at least attempt to find something that is within the goals I have set for me. If I get to that without maxing out, then I am good to go.

The key for me is to have fun shooting, and also have some fun working up a few loads, it is a hobby. Luckily I did not set my goals too high that it is unattainable, so i should be able to get all three powders to a load that will be acceptable to me.

 

[TimSr]

Chrony readings could tell you a lot. If your flyers are also flyes on the velocity it would tell you its probably not the shooter. Velocity spreads of your groups has a lot to do with consistantly hitting in the same place. It would also help to know what bullets you are using. Different bullets have different sweet spots with powder and charge weight.

 

[readyeddy]

It could be the plated bullets. The Real Guns data are all for jacketed bullets. I would start by getting some Gold Dots for XTP's.

 

[vaalpens]

Chrony readings could tell you a lot. If your flyers are also flyes on the velocity it would tell you its probably not the shooter. Velocity spreads of your groups has a lot to do with consistantly hitting in the same place. It would also help to know what bullets you are using. Different bullets have different sweet spots with powder and charge weight.

TimSr, thanks for the comments. I also think a Chrony at this time will help. One additional data point is what I need to better evaluate my loads.

The bullets I am using are plated, but they are the RMR 124gr Hardcore Match Plated Flat Nose bullets.

 

[vaalpens]

It could be the plated bullets. The Real Guns data are all for jacketed bullets. I would start by getting some Gold Dots for XTP's.

readyeddy, i'm not sure I want to blame the plated bullets yet.

I actually went out int the desert today and shot some of my Longshot loads. I was just shooting at some IDPA targets and did not miss the A zone on any of them, so the loads are good for what I will use them for. Since I was outside in the desert, I could monitor where my brass landed. The Longshot pattern was not that consistent, so I think the advice I have received so far is probably correct. I need to increase the load to get better consistency out of Longshot.

 

[Dudedog]

I haven't used Longshot in .357 Sig but I can say in 9mm it is much happier at higher charges. Worked ok for me a med charges, worked much better at med-heavy or heavy charges.